Ep. 1. Art Howe: That's Howe You Do It

The career of major league baseball player, coach, scout and manager Art Howe is discussed here, with details about his early playing days, managerial styles and strategies. He played in the National League from 1974 to 1985 and was a coach, scout, and manager for several major league teams from 1986 to 2003. Please contribute to the KATA foundation KATA Foundation - Fanconi anemia Denver to cure Fanconi Anemia. And please follow me on Twitter @HeroesIconsPod 
Thank you!! Image credit: TOPPS Card Company. 

Transcript

 All right. Thank you everyone for listening today. Welcome to the Rookie Debut, the the inaugural version of the Heroes and Icons podcast. Our show today is brought to you by my friends at Baseball Seams Company. They're based in South Dakota, and they they make some great gifts for the baseball fan of the faith-based fan in your life.

Again, that's baseball seams c.com, and seams spelled just like you would spell seams on a baseball, s e a m s. So please please remember to find us on oddly enough Heroes and Icons podcast on Instagram. You can either also I'm sure you found us by now on SoundCloud and captivate Podcast venues.

So if you would please review this podcast and and share and all that good stuff that helps us as well. Let me introduce my guest today. If if you've been a fan of baseball over the last 40 years, he doesn't really need an introduction. He was, he played for 12 years in the majors with Pittsburgh, Houston and St.

Louis, and he managed for 14 years in the Bigs with Houston Oakland and the New York Mets winning over 1000 games. And two American League West Division titles, both with Oakland. He also had stops over several seasons as a coach, as both a coach and a scout with several different organizations, including the Los Angeles Dodge.

Colorado Rockies, Philadelphia, Phillies, and Texas Rangers as a player. He was a key contributor for the 1980 Houston Astros. He had a huge day at the plate in the 163rd game of the season on October 6th in Los Angeles with a four R B I performance, including a Clutch two run single and a two run home run to help the Astros clench their first, first ever division title, which was the National League West at that time with the National League leading 4 32 average for the month of May, 1981.

He was named nationally Player of the Month. That year he set a team record for hitting safely in 23 consecutive games, and he also finished 18th that year at the National League mvp, voting as a coach in 1988 with the Texas Rangers. He was named the Rangers recipient of the Harold McKinney Good Guy Award, no surprise there.

And in 1999 as a manager, he was named Oakland Athletics recipient of their Dave Stewart's Service Award for four consecutive seasons with Oakland from 1999 through 2002, he finished second in the voting for American League Manager of the Year Award. He managed internationally with stops in the Winter Leagues for the Vaccaro in 1979 and 1980, and he led the 19 94, 19 95, if I'm saying this right, AZA Carrero Este to their first Dominican League title.

He managed China in the 2013 World Baseball Classic. He also coached and managed all-star teams in Italy and Japan. He is a member of several halls of fame, including the Shaler area, Pennsylvania Athletic Hall of Fame, the University of Wyoming Athletics Hall of Fame, the Texas Baseball Hall of Fame, the Houston Astros Orbiters Hall of Fame.

And most recently in 21. In 2021, he was very deservedly inducted into the Western chapter of the Pennsylvania Sports Hall of Fame. He was a part of seven major league Postseasons as both a player and a manager. And our guest today is our How. Alright. Thank you so much for being my guest today. How are you in the family?

What's keeping you busy these days? Actually going to the doctor's office. , my wife and I we've had a few appointments here and my wife's gonna have a procedure next month, so Okay. Hopefully that turns out well, but I think it will we feel very confident in the Dr. Little heart surgery, okay, good. I'm thinking about that. Thank you. Anything else? Grandkids, golf. Oh, six grandkids. My one grandson is playing golf on his high school team. Okay. And doing very well. Oh, great. My granddaughters are into cheer and all that. Sure. Sure. We're constantly going someplace to watch them Okay.

Perform. Yeah. Or the kids, compete in, in the golf tournaments and that's keeps you going. So we're very thrilled that we have six healthy.  young grandkids and my children are all doing well too. Oh, great. Great. Excellent. Any future baseball players in our down the, down, down the line there?

I don't think so, and my grandkids, but my son actually got the double A Oh, wow. Okay. With the a and hurt his over very badly and missed out on the whole season, and that put him behind the eight ball and that was basically it. Okay. He did a little coaching in the minor leagues for a year or two, but he realized he could make a lot more money elsewhere.

Yeah. Yeah. But I, that's usually the case, unfortunately. Let me let me start off just with your career in the early days in Pittsburgh can you talk about your introduction to baseball? And I also wanted to mention that in your Pennsylvania Sports Hall of Fame speech, you primarily mentioned Dev Rupert as a very key figure in your development as both a player and the man you would become.

Can you talk about what he meant to you as well? He meant the world to me. He's the one that really got me involved when I was young into organized baseball. Sure. And he was basically my second father he got me, he took me to all the games Challenged me all the time to, to do better and to do, get the best out of my abilities and showed me how to play the game really.

And was men my mentor all along the way? He's passed since then, but sure. He was a wonderful person in my life. And I'm sure I wouldn't have ended up where I did without him. Sure, sure. Absolutely. And it's always it's important to, make a difference in the lives of others and he was certainly very important to you.

Very much and I visit his wife every time we go back to Pittsburgh, I always make a point to stop by. Sure. And see his ex-wife, I mean his wife. And and that's always nice to see her. But, and also I grew up in Pittsburgh, so I got to see a lot of my friend, high school friends when I go back.

Sure. Go back and and a lot of family still. Oh, excellent. Excellent. Very good. So in those early days in Pittsburgh, were the, what were the, as a, as a youth, what what were some teams or players that you followed that you tried to emulate or idolize at that time? My, my hero is Roberto Clemente.

Sure. When you grew up in Pittsburgh, in, in those years, he was the most outstanding player. Yeah. And I went to a game early on when I was still a teenager to see him play not only him but the team, the pirates, but he made a catch in right field. There's bases loaded in one out. . And I recall him, and at that time, I don't know if anybody knew how great his arm was.

Sure. He caught it over the shoulder. He was going towards the warning track. Okay. Caught it over the shoulder, spun around, and the guy on third was Richie Ashburn, who could run. Yeah, sure. Seed to the plate. Perfect. Throw uhhuh bang. Got him. Wow. Double play to Ndy inning. . Wow. And that's when I said, wow, this guy's special , just to see his defense all the way from the warning track, all the way from the warning track, spun around and just fired a BB to the plate.

Wow. And Richie Ashburn got up what happened? , that was something I'll always remember that play. And from that time forward, I always kinda idolized Roberto. Plus he was an outstanding hitter. When I actually did get called up my first year in the off season and when we were finished in the minor leagues, since I lived in Pittsburgh, they let me come to batting practice Wow. Before a few games. And, I'd take round balls at third base and Clemente, him and Willie Star. Yeah. They swung like 36, 36 s wow. And on the end, that's like a Bob Watson bat, right?

Yeah. It's a Bob Watson that Exactly. And they, it was a different sound when they hit the ball. Sure. And I remember it had rained a little bit before we took batting practice and on the AstroTurf that was new right. To everybody really at that point. And Clemente , he hit a rocket down to me like a one hopper  and it hydroplaned off that.

Oh no. And it hit my wrist and  and it had the commissioner's name on my wrist.  say you didn't to talk about it. And I remember. The hitting, the guy hitting me, the coach hitting me ground balls, said hey son, you better go into the outfield before you get yourself hurt . I said, I'm going

Oh man. That's a great story. It's I'm glad that that you were able to gonna see him and and maybe it, maybe take some some time with, take some time with him. Actually, it was nice. remember the first time I saw him come into the clubhouse. He, I think he was 39 years old at the time.

Okay. And he took his shirt off and it looked like a 21 year old body. Yeah. He had, and he never lift weights as far as I knew, but he Okay. His stomach just rippled. Yeah.  With the definition and the muscles and Yeah. And then I knew why he could swing a 36, 36 . That's all comes from before he was chiseled.

He really was, he was put together. Excellent. Very good. Very good. Let's see, was was Clemente the only player that you idolized at the time? Anyone at the time, yes. But when I finally got called up to the Pirates very quickly after that, Robert, Willie Starge became Sure.

A very special person to me. He, to this day, he is the best team leader I've ever seen on a baseball team or in a clubhouse. To give you a couple examples, , when I came up, I was 25th man on a roster, hanging on by my fingernails, . But he made sure that I felt like I was part of the team.

He went out of his way to make me feel like I was part of the team. He'd come in early and I'd be there and he'd say, come on, art. I actually used to call me author , come on Arthur, let's go down to the batting cage. So I went down there. I figured I'm just gonna sure. Feed him some balls to hit, yeah. And he was mvp, I'm pretty sure. The year before, and we get down there and he insisted on me hitting first. And I'm saying, come on Willie. Let me feed the machine. He said, no, you hit first. So after I hit, then I went down and fed the machine to him and trust me, it was a different sound from his bat.

My bat , in fact, I think I got jammed a few times hitting off the machine. He would hit with one hand on the bat. Okay. And hit line drives swinging this big thing. He'd choke up on it. Almost halfway. But he'd use his top hand hitting. Okay. Like maybe 20, 20 swings. And then he switched to his bottom hand and swing one-handed with that.

Okay. And then finish up with both hands on the back. Wow. Okay. And I asked him, I. Why do you do that? And his explanation made a lot of sense. He says, it teaches both of your hands to go to the ball. Okay. And he says, most guys usually are top hand hitters. That's what guides the bat. Okay. He said, I'd like both of my hands to guide the bat.

Sure. Needless say, I tried it a few times, , but it didn't work too well for me.  swinging one hand. But it certainly made sense to me. Okay. Very good. Very good. So in so let me keep going through through Pittsburgh here a little bit. So in, in 1964, you helped your high school baseball team when the state title, your junior year you graduated high school from Shayler, you attend Wyoming on a football scholarship, and then you entered your back your freshman year, and then you turned your focus solely to baseball.

Yes. At that point I was a, I hurt my back just running sprints. Actually. I had a slip disc my sophomore year in high school playing football. Okay. But I rehabbed it and strengthened it and was able to play my next two years without rein, injuring it at all, but just running sprints and playing baseball.

I was playing both  the spring I was going to football practice and then baseball practice at night under, in the. Field house in the Armory, actually. And I think it was just too much stress on my low back. I was running sprints in spring, in the spring with the football team and Okay.

And my back went out. And they put me in the infirmary and they held me down and gave me cortisone shots in my lower back and Oh, man. And at that time the doctor there said, if I heard it again, I'd be finished playing any sports. So that's when I made a decision I was gonna forget football.

And try to earn a scholarship in baseball, which I did the next year, so Okay. Because my parent, my dad was a truck driver. He couldn't afford to put me to school, especially out of state. Sure. And the fact that I was able to get a scholarship, that I was able to stay at Wyoming. Okay. Very good.

Very good. So after you graduate Wyoming, you're back in, you're back in Pittsburgh and you're working at Westinghouse, you're playing for the Northside Mets and you're knocking the cover off the ball. So you go to the Pirates tryout camp at the behest of your friend, a coworker, bill Hauser. But he had actually written all 24 Major League teams at that point.

And the Pirates were the only ones that came back with the trial offer. Is that's exactly the truth. I thought he was blowing smoke because he came out and saw me play several games during the summer. And I was doing pretty well he couldn't understand why I wasn't getting signed, but.

22 at the time, I was gonna turn 23 before the next baseball season. And I told him I didn't think BA teams were looking for 22 year old kids assigned, but sure. He went through so much trouble. I said I owe it to him to at least go out and do it. Plus I would never live with myself if I didn't at least go try it.

I had been to a triad camp in, when I was in high school. Okay. And at the time, I think the Astros are interested in me, but I told them I was gonna go to college. I was gonna get an so they didn't waste a pick. Sure. So I did get, I went triad camp, spent six hours on AstroTurf. Okay. And 90 degree heat had blisters on all my toes and feet.

And can you tell me about that? I was running, I had to run two sprints of 60 yard dashes. They tie me, took infield at third, took infield at shortstop, took batting practice. I think I got the swing once the kid I was facing was wild as a march. Hair , throwing the ball over the place, . So I figured that was it.

I'm done. But they called off three names out of, there was over 200 kids there. And they thanked everybody else for coming and they called the three names. Ken Mako was one of the other two, two guys, which is a small world because he became my bench coach in, out in Oakland. Yep. But

So they, we went through we hit off of coaches. , each of us rotated and went to the outfield and shag and those two, they sent home. And on my way in that I was coming in from left field, they told me to stop at shortstop again. Yeah. Hit me some more ground balls, up the middle, slow rollers in the hall.

Then I'm totally gased and walking in and they said you pitched in high school, didn't you? I said, yeah. They said, let's see, you throw some off the mound now, , . So I threw about 15, 20 pitches. They said, let's see your fast ball. Let's see your curve ball. Let's whatever, all your stuff. And I totally gased, I don't even know if I'd threw an 80 miles off , probably by, by then.

But they said, thanks for coming. So I went in the clubhouse. The other two guys had already left. And I was just totally exhausted. It took me about five minutes just to get the energy to take my uniform off and take a shower. But yeah, went home, went right to bed because I was working at Westinghouse.

I had to get my rest for the next day, go to work. And sure, my wife came home. She was working and asked me how the tryout went. I said, I thought it went pretty well. I did the best I could, but. , I have to explain to her what happened. Okay. The next day we, I got a phone call and they offered me a free agent contract.

And back then, a free agent contract was zero. You were getting an invitation to spring training . Okay. You'll pay for your flight down to see if you could make a team. Okay. And that's all I wanted, just a chance. So it was that winter I went out to Wyoming, which is pretty high altitude.

I figured if I'd get in shape there when I go to Florida, it would be a piece of cake, yep. And plus I had to lose some weight. I was at 2 0 4 working behind a desk at Westinghouse. Ah, yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. So I went out there and worked real hard and lost 10 pounds. Okay. Got myself in good shape, and by the end of that season I was down to 1 74

Wow. 30 pounds, huh. Because I send my money home to my wife. I can see the pictures on the, there's a, just to explain to the listeners here, there's a nice collage of pictures from art in, in its early days, and you can definitely see that  you were pretty lean, pretty thin.

Thin, yeah. And my wife, when she joined me late, late in the summer, she couldn't believe it when she could count all my ribs. I looked like I was a prisoner camp. Oh man. In mighty, sure. But got through that year, I had a real good year. So I led the league in knitting. And that's when I, because of when, at the end of this season, I was able to go and take, what, work with batting practice.

I didn't get the hit. I just shagged Okay. When the pirates were hitting. But that was a thrill for me just to go into that clubhouse. Cause I grew up in Pittsburgh. All these guys were yeah. You've seen all these guys. Yeah. It was like, what am I doing in this clubhouse?

Willie Sario and, Richie Ner? Yeah. Manny Sanguillen and, all of 'em al all over, outstanding team. They were very good every year. Sure. And I was just thrilled to be in the clubhouse, to be honest with you. Sure. So you made the team outta Springs or you were invited and then you got a $500 a month contract with Salem at that point for 1971.

Yeah. Okay. That was an interesting way. The cut players. Each night when in your room, the loud dress system we'd click on and everybody, even if you had music playing or whatever, Uhhuh, , boom, the music would go off and everybody would hold their breath and hope they didn't hear their name because.

whoever was called, they would say report to the office. And that meant you were being sent home. Sure. And there was four of us in my room. One guy had thrown a no hitter in double A the year before. Okay. Other guy had hit two 90 something in Haye. . And the other kid was a, an invitee like myself.

Sure. And by the end of spring training, I was the only one left in the room. Wow. And that was really a wake up call. But the last day of when they made the final cuts, you still, we, I went to college, I could count. Yeah. And I knew the team I was on. There were still too many guys. Yeah. To fit that roster.

There were 22 man rosters back then. Sure. Yeah. And I think we had 25 or 26 guys still working out with us. Okay. So I'm thinking, yeah. The acts could still follow. But I was doing pretty well on spring training, but you never know. And they, each manager.  Would call off his roster.  And if you were maybe started with the Triple A team.

Sure. And then if you were on the AAA team working out with them, but you weren't, your name wasn't called Now, the double A manager would call off his roster. Okay. Now, those guys were hoping to be called for the Double H team. And if you weren't, then you knew you were going home. Okay. And that's the way they worked it.

And they got down to a ball for me, it was Haye Salem, Virginia. Okay. And they called off my name. So I was, but all the rest of the guys, those last few guys, they all had to go to center field and meet Harding Peterson, who was our minor league director. And he told 'em they were all going home. And it was a shame because those kids were the last ones to get cut Right.

From those teams so they could have hooked on with another team. Actually, the kids who got cut earlier in the spring were better off because they could go to another camp Sure. And maybe hook on with another organization. So it was pretty heartwrenching to see these guys. All three of the guys cried on my shoulders at my roommates Yeah.

Before they left. So it was tough. There's only 24 teams at that time, so there aren't as many chances to make another team. Yeah. But yeah, that's all I one was a chance and I was going to get a chance  off to Salem, Virginia. I went . Very good. Very good. So your wife Betty is so  you're Newlyw at this time and you maybe have a kid or two in total.

All the way. We have one coming in my first year, our oldest Stephanie. Okay. And then so I wanted to ask you so with that situation now, so you're on the road, you're in Salem, got the new family. So what challenges did that present you guys at that time?

I was making $500 a month and I had to have two roommates to to have a room, an apartment. So we shared the expenses. Sure. And  it was funny, I just found out this year the minor leagues are getting their hotel, their rooms. Yeah. All paid for. It's must be nice. It is. I'm glad they're finally taking care of those young guys because, they're not making any money down there.

No. So it was nice to see that new role came in, but yeah, we made it happen. I was the driver. I had we all went in my car to and from practice and to and from games and I remember one time it was so hot down in, in Sailor Virginia, we came out one time and I learned a valuable lesson to leave your windows cracked.

Yep. Because we had 'em all shut and it was scald and hot on. Opened the front door and the whole back window went into a cowe just disintegrated. So we had to get the back window replaced, but we, from then on, we left an inch so it wouldn't overheat inside the car. But, those are funny things we remember going back.

But the one good thing about Charles, I mean about St. Virginia is if you hit a home run right at home. Yep. Pizza Hut gave you all free pizza. There you go. So that we are all begging to hit one out . And whenever I'd hit one, the whole, almost all the whole tea would come over with me and Nice. We'd get some free pizzas.

So that's how we survived for the most part. And there was a fellow, I can't recall his name, he had a restaurant downtown that for two bucks you could get a great lunch. Okay. And that's where I ate every day at home, gave him two bucks and get a real good lunch that kept you going.

But he did that for the whole team. Whoever came in, it was a $2 lunch. That's nice that he took care of you guys. Yeah. Very nice people. Very good. Very good. So you had to do different things back then, like maybe there's some other challenges with that, that we don't have today. You have to find a payphone or carry change with you and those in those type of things that, that Yeah.

Most people now don't understand. We're. I'm 52, so I, I, I grew up with a little bit of that but yeah, you couldn't communicate as much as you did now. Sure. Plus it costs you money  to get a long distance call because Exactly. And they'd tell you, one more minute,  or something like that.

So you'd have to hurry up and finish up your phone calls. But yeah, I wouldn't trade it for anything. And those experiences in those times, I think are what make us stronger and make us better, because we did have to go through them and not, having them removed or what have you.

Yeah. Guess maybe some guys say, yeah, I wish I was born now, not me. I wouldn't have changed anything, back then you could leave your front door unlocked and Yeah. And not worry about anything and have let your kids go out and play wherever. Yeah. And not worry about anything.

Times certainly have changed. Sure. Not for the better. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. Unfortunately. Maybe those things will come back around. I hope so. I hope so. Good. So let me ask you just also in those days in regards to equipment and teams being notoriously tight fisted, then on purchases or maybe all the way through time what was it like trying to acquire or negotiate equipment in those days in the minors?

The fact that I led the league in hitting my first year helped because I got a contract with a be, I'm can't even remember what the let me see that bat there.  Louisville. Louisville Slugger. Louisville Slugger. And at Adirondack. Yes. But I had a contract with Louisville Slugger so I could get a few bats sent to me.

Back then, it was all wood. And if you broke them, you're in dire shape because everybody treasured their few bats that they got. I can imagine. It was like gold. You took care of it. Yeah. But and a glove, I, I got a glove from Louisville and you just took care of it as best as you can.

And that was it. You were lucky to get anything else that the uniforms were supplied by the team. Sure. So you didn't have to worry about that. But, your shoes, you had to go out and get Right. Pay your, for your own shoes and things. So Yeah, it was, money was tight and and we used to get $5 a day meal money on the road.

Okay. Yeah. And McDonald's was a big favor to our  Plus you had to tip the clubby on the road. Yep. We would get food after, games. And maybe before games a little bit. He was buying all that food, so you had to tip him. Sure. So you, the $5 really didn't cover much each day.

Probably not. . I can't imagine that it would, that's not a lot of money at any time. . So you mentioned that you you led the Carolina League with the Salem Rebels hitting you hit 3 48 in 1971. 3 38. 3 38, I think. Is that what that says up there? Yes. I can't even remember. Let's see, hold on. No, 3 48.

3 48. Yes, sir. See, I was cheating myself out of 10 points. Exactly how many hits. I wonder for a minor league season? I don't know. I couldn't tell you, but I know he took a lot of extra bp. I bet. Yeah. We had a little cage up on the hill above the ballpark there and me and maybe another guy would go up there and try to, throw to each other to keep her strokes going.

But yeah, it was fun. The road trips, 10 hour bus ride, yeah. We'd fight for those births up above, that's where people put their luggage and everything. Now we used to fight to get up there to go to sleep, , so the first guys on the bus would get those primes lofts. We would call them, race out there for 'em almost.

By the way, we also got to know each other, 10 hours playing cards together. Telling about, telling each other about our backgrounds and our families and everything. It was, you really got to be friends and yeah, I still have friends with guys since I played all the way back then.

Sure. In contact with them. That's great. Excellent. It's very good. So you played with, you actually played in the minors with Kim Macho? No, he was a level below me, actually. I think he signed maybe the year after I signed. Might be off a year. Okay. Yeah. I think he was, I did play a little bit in the big leagues with him.

He came up at towards the end of my second year in the big leagues. Okay. And we played together there a little, but that was it. And it was amazing how things happened, years and years later. Yeah. Hook up together in Oakland. So that was fun. He did a great job for me as a bench coach.

I, I bet. And he eventually became a manager, so that was I was really happy for him. Good. Excellent. Very good. Very good. So can you talk about about some other guys you play with a guy named Chuck Gogan, who was the most let see if I'm, let me make sure I'm saying that this right. He was the most decorated, or the major league baseball player who was the most decorated Vietnam veteran in that time, in his days in the Marine Corps.

And you played with him in Charleston. Charleston, second Bassman he could play, yes. Yep. And it was, back then, it was really hard to get to the big leagues because, if you're playing behind Willie Star, you know what Yeah. How many opportunities you're gonna get. Sure. We had a first basement who hit over 300 every year.

 At Triple A, and I think he got called up once, maybe twice at, in September Sure. With the Pirates, because they didn't have a need. They had Bob Robertson at Yeah. At first base. And Willie played some first base back then. Sure. It was.  really difficult. You just didn't have the minor league situation the way it is now.

You didn't have free agency. We were pawn as far as the major league teams were concerned. They, we were like security blankets in case somebody got hurt up there. Sure. They could, call you up and Right. And that's basically the way you got called to the big leagues in, in case somebody really was doing really poorly up there, then you might get a chance, but, or if there was a big injury, unfortunately there's somebody.

Yeah. Yep. That's basically what happened with Mia. It was a, about 18, I think they had called up eight other guys during the summer. And I'm leading the league in hitting and I'm still in Charles, West Virginia  wondering what's going on here, but I think the guy, that on the big club was a utility guy.

He wasn't doing well. And they finally gave me an opportunity, but I had to grease the wheels a little bit to have that happen, I think. Okay. How did you do that? How'd you go about that? After the day, our minor league director, Harding Peterson, came to visit us in Charles, West Virginia.

I remember it was a real hot summer day, as usual there. And this is like in July, Earl, early July, right? Almost mid-July. And he came in and said, . And that day they had called up our center fielder, Dave Augustine, who was hitting 180 8. Oh wow. And I was hitting like three 50 something. Sure. Maybe 360 something.

And he came in, he says, hi boys, what can I, is there anything I can do? And I says, I'll tell you what,  oh. And I told him, I says, what do you have? He says, what can I do? And I says, what do I have to do to get to the big leagues? Hit 180 8. I said, give me two weeks. I can get there. In other words, not get a hit for two weeks.

I'd be down to 180 8 . Right? And he said, yeah, nobody talks to me that way, and I never did. Sure. I was like, no one even knew I existed. And I says I'm talking to you that way. He says if you want to talk to me, let's step outside. I says, let's go . So I let him, I got everything off my shoulders and the way they were calling people up and I was doing great and I wasn't getting a chance.

And I just wanted a chance. That's all. I said, I just want to see if I can play in the big leagues. I think I earned the right to find out, and I missed batting practice in infield because we were out there . And I remember one of the comments he made to me, he says, art, I've always been in your corner.

And I said that shows how much poll you have in this organization, . I says, look at me. I'm in Triple A, still, aren't I, Pete? And he goes, oh, don't say that. I said here I am. I'm in Charleston, West Virginia. I guess you don't have much poll. . The next day I got a call from my manager, you're going to the big leagues.

There you go. Actually, I went three for five that night after missing, all that, I got three more hits. So I guess that helped. And they called me up the next day you got your money's worth. Yeah. For that conversation. I let 'em, I maybe, they needed to see that I had a little spunk.

Sure. Because I was, I just doing my job, being quiet and being respectful, anding. Sure. What's the expression? Sometimes you have to toot your own horn. Is that, yeah. I actually was feeling guilty the next day, to be honest, with driving up there. It was about five hour drive from Charles West Virginia to Pittsburgh and Uhhuh

And I was thinking to myself, oh man, are they calling me up because I complained? Or did I really earned this chance? And Sure. And I just said, Hey, I've earned this. I should get this shot. At that point, that's your fourth year in the majors, I'm sorry, excuse me. The minors.

Yeah. Before you're called up and you've proven yourself at a hitter at that as a hit at that level. Yeah.  And I had told my wife going into that season, I said, if I don't get. . If I don't get to the big leagues, I'm calling it quits. I'm going to go to Westinghouse. Go back to work there.

And because I'm away all summer and everything in the minor leagues. We're not making any money. I had to borrow money from my parents that, so one year, which was very hurtful. I never, I didn't ever want to have to borrow money from my dad and yet, because I think all my brothers had done it but I did it because I had to. And but I've repaid 'em and Sure. As soon as I could. And but it was hurtful and my pride was hurt. That's a tough situation. I can imagine. Yeah. I, but got to the big leagues that, that night and first guy in the clubhouse. . Yep. I went right to the clubhouse.

I didn't even go home or anything. I went straight to the yard . And like I said, I was the first one in there and saw my locker. I was next to Bob Moose. I remember Moosey. He was a reliever on the team. He was quite a character. Him and Dave Parker used to have a lot of fun with each other.

I bet they used to call each other names that you couldn't do these days. Yes. But it was all in good fun. It was all in good fun. . Absolutely. So when you get there, do they just automatically assign, it's here, how are you gonna wear 18? Yeah. Is that pretty much how that happened?

Yeah. It was 14. They gave me 14, I'm sorry. And backwards. 14. The reason I took 14 at that time. Ed OT was a close friend, and we had Okay. We had played some minor league ball together and Otter was a heck of a catcher and tough kid. Sure. And I think he for some reason wasn't on the team at that time.

I can't recall why. Okay. But he told me you could have my number. And so I took 14, but I remember I had number eight in the minor leagues. Okay. And Willie Star wore number eight, the big leagues, , you weren't gonna get that one. And Willie, and this is the kind of guy Willie was. Yep. He came over to me like the first day or so, and he says yeah, what number were you wearing down there?

And I said, eight. He says, do you wanna wear it here? And I says, come on. He says, you can have eight. I'll change my number. That's the way Willie was. And he was being honest. I said, no, Willie, no. No way , I'll take whatever number they give me. But Right. So I took number 14  And that was it for when I was my short stay with the Buckos.

Okay. So you get called up and you're called up that you're in, this is 1974, and you were called up to be the backup to the grave digger. Third, third Basement, Richie Hener. So what was that that, like you, we talked about being called up and getting there, but what was that like when you got that call, when you were when you got the call from your manager and you're going, what was that like for your family and everyone?

Oh, it was a thrill. Since I grew up in Pittsburgh, that was my hometown, right? All my, guys I went to high school with and all my neighbors and relatives, everybody was super excited and they killed me on the pass list, , we used to get four family and two friends, something like that.

And I had to borrow them for all cuz I couldn't afford to be buying all those tickets for family and friends. But I worked it out as best as I could. But all the guys helped me out because they knew I was from Pittsburgh, all the other, and they, if they weren't using their tickets, they come over already.

You could have mine, you could, you can have mine. So you get on the pass list and you start writing those guys names. But no, my fan, all my people that were coming to see me, but it was nice. It was very nice. And hack. Affectionately known as Hacker because he hacked at just about everything Richie Hener.

And, but he can certainly hit, and you didn't want to throw him the low ball from the ankles to the knees. He would wear you out. He was gonna golf that way. Oh, he loved the ball down there. . Oh man. But he was quite a hitter. He hit 300 I think a couple years there. And I knew I wasn't gonna get much playing time, but whenever I got it I cherished it went out and Sure.

And did the best I can. I think I got to play one week straight. And only because we won six games in a row and the seventh game we lost that I knew that I was coming outta the light . That's the way Danny Merkel was, his streak was over. He would play a hot team or a hot streak.

He wouldn't change the lineup as long as it was winning. He was gonna ride it, ride that out. He would ride it out. Yep. And and the reason I got in the lineup, it was against the Astros and Richie Hebner back then, JR. Richard was pretty wild Sure. In his first couple years in the big leagues.

Okay. And he threw 'em all a hundred miles an hour. Oh yeah. And nobody, even the left-handers didn't want to face him. And Richie Hefner was a left-handed hitter. And Jr's a right-handed pitcher. Sure. And Hacker looked at the pitching matchups coming in from Houston and he saw that, that JR was scheduled to, to pitch one of the games.

And and I think Dirk was scheduled for another one, right? And he says you better get your rest tonight, Artie. My, my back's starting to tighten up on me . And I thought he was joking, I said, yeah, sure. I knew they were right. Handers the next day, I'm in the lineup. My name's in the lineup.

Yeah. And hacker's got a big smile on his face over at the locker. He told, Danny, me, all my back's hurting. I can't play.  He sandbag that one. So I got in there and probably drew a couple walks from JR. And got a couple hits off of Dirk, and we won both games. And then the next series came in and we swept that series.

And now he's mad because he's, he wants back in a lineup, but Murr's going. And the funny thing was that the last game we lost, we were playing the Braze and Ralph cars up with a base loaded in like the top of the eighth. We're up two runs. He hits a, with two outs. Okay? He pops up along the file line. I'm playing third base, okay.

I go over to the stands and in Pittsburgh it the stands were about three feet higher than you are. Okay? They were standing that much higher than you, right? And there's a couple rails, but you could reach between them Okay. And catch a ball, even though it was going into the stands. I'm right there, ready to catch this foul pop for the third out of the inning.

And the fan catches it about two feet above my glove. Oh, man. Oh, and I'm, you're upset. I'm mad because I know. Next pitch, Gar triples the right center. See, you're outta lineup tomorrow. Sure enough, I wasn't playing again, , but if I made that catch and I was gonna catch it, it was coming right into my glove.

That was no fault of your own though. But it wasn't meant to be, and but that was my streak in Pittsburgh. I got to play seven games in a row there at once. There you go. Can I ask you about the, I wanna talk about your about your debut. Oh, yeah. So let me set the table here for the audience, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

So it's July the 10th, 1974. You're playing at Three Rivers. It's the bottom of the seventh against the Braves. Dave Augustine Grounds out your Mario Mendoza follows with a single, he advances the third on an E nine, which is an error by the right fielder. And then Marta says, how grab a bat you're gonna hit for for Patterson.

Who's the pitch pitcher? Daryl Patterson and Carl Morton is on the mound for Atlanta. And as a rookie make in your major league debut what type of pitch are you looking for and what is the bench telling you? First of all, I was down in a bulled just trying to help out. I Okay.

I didn't expect to even get in a game or anything. Sure. And. The inning ended between innings that the phone rings and the bullpen. Okay, that's down the right, right field line at Three River Stadium. And they say send Hal down. He's sitting for the pitcher, right? Huh, geez, you talk about butterflies, man.

They're going to a mile a minute. Did he have to hoof it down to the dugout? So I had to run down to the dugout, right? And, by the time I get down there, I'm trying to find my bat amongst all these trees. The pirates, they all use these 35 or 36. I'm using a 34 and a half inch bat, and I can't find my bat.

And I'm in a panic. I finally find my bat, and now I gotta find my batting helmet, right? It's in the rack. And I finally get that, and I come out of the dugout in the home, played umpire. God was, it wasn't Doug Harvey, but it was and the old Irishman, he had his hands on his hips looking at me, and I'm thinking, I didn't even take any practice swings on the optic, sir.

I went straight to the battered box and he looked at me and he says, are you ready son ? And I said, yes, sir, yes sir. And then he laughed. He says, don't worry about it. Relax. You're okay. . That helped. And I got in the box and I got worked to count the three and one. And I hit a swinging bunt on the third baseline.

Okay. . And they let it roll . And here I am, I'm hitting a thousand in the big leagues. . . There you go. So it, it does, so in the baseball reference and in the box score, it mentions, it, it reads that you got the single to third and with Mendoza stain at third. But on the top, on your tops card from 1980, it says that you banged out a single, banged out a single

You it. But that was funny. The next day, I was pumped, first guy in the clubhouse again. Heck yeah. Danny Merton's playing cards with his coaching staff and they're laughing and everything having a good time. And I'm, I got my back. I'm my lockers here and I'm getting my stuff out.

All of a sudden it gets real quiet. Oh. And I'm wondering what something's up. Okay. And Mertal walks over and he had the dry humor. Sure. I'm, he taps me on the shoulder and I turn around and I said, yes, sir. Yes, sir. He says, you know what? You make me. And I'm thinking, oh, I'm going back to Charleston.

What? I said, what did I do sir? What did I do? He says, you know how long it took me to get my first big league hit . And he started laughing. He says the 14 games or something like that, or 14 of Pats. And I said, he says, congratulations son. That's great. And he walked back and they all laughed over there,  cuz they knew how scared I was.

But that was okay that night. I pinched shit again. Made it out. I had the biggest s slope in the history of the game. 500 points.  bad. 500 now. Yeah, 500. You won for two. So did they throw the ball outta the game for you? Yes, they did. I got that ball. It's, it might be right in here somewhere.

Who knows? Okay. My wife has it someplace. Good. Yeah. Good. That's a great, that's my hit streak over there, those balls. Okay. And 23 game hit streak. Wow. That was a triple I hit from my last hit off of Vida Blue. Wow. And I'm sure I got my first hit. You. It might be over there. I'm not, I don't scatter that much.

I I understand that. And a lot of guys aren't, I don't think terribly sentimental in a lot of cases after we played. But that's great that you had that. That's a great thing. Yeah, that's a great moment. That was nice. That's what I tell people. I don't want to hit it too hard up. I want to get the ball back.

You don't want to get it fouled off of the next pitch, the pitcher to get it or anything. So can you talk a little more about your Pirates teammates when we've talked about Willie Sarl, Al Oliver, Richie Hener, Manny Sanguillen, Richie Zisk, Mario Mendoza, Jim Rooker, Steve Bla, Kenko Keny, Kim Mancha and all those guys.

And can you talk about how they about how they influenced you, how to be a professional to the club all the time? First of all, it was a Lucy goosey group. Okay. They were as I went from them to the Astros. And at that time, the Astros had lost like 105 games when I came over there.

But right when I was with the Pirates, it was unbelievable the the confidence that they had. Sure. You could feel, it was like, if we do our jobs, we're gonna.  doesn't matter who we're playing. That's the confidence they had. That's a lot of confidence. If we mess up, we may lose. Okay. But if we play our game we're gonna beat those guys.

And that's the the feeling you had in that clubhouse. It was great. I was, it was, you could feel it, it was oozing out of them, the confidence. And I played with Richie Hebner, and, I've played with Richie Zisk and Trip away, so I got to know Richie there. Yep. Before the big leagues.

. I also played with the, oh, the big gray fielder. Jesus came up just before I did from Triple A. Oh, that's terrible. My memory's going on me. But one of the greats, he, oh, he had a great throwing arm. Dave Parker. Dave Parker. Yeah. I came up with Dave Par. He came up just before I did, but I played with those couple guys in the minor leagues, and now they're on the big club.

But when you mentioned Al Oliver , the year I spent there, the two years I spent there with the parts, a year and a half, whatever it was, he hit the ball more consistently hard.  Than any other player in the big leagues. Just a, his outs were hard. Yep. Scoop. He, when he could hit, he could flat rake.

Yep. He choked up about an inch on the bat and he knew his strike zone, but man, you couldn't throw a fastball by him. Sure. And Sanguillen another guy, you could throw a fastball from the tip of his hat to his ankles and he was gonna hit a BB someplace. There wasn't a pitch he didn't like they could hit, they could rake and that was, and it was infectious.

Sure. You were a pirate you're supposed to hit. That's good. And that came from Clemente because he was the best. Oh yeah. He was the best bad ball hitter Yes. That anyone's ever seen. Exactly. And they never said, Hey, quit swinging at those because , who knows, they can hit it outta the ballpark.

And it was on his toes. But it was just great to be around that atmosphere. A championship team. We went to the playoffs, the year I was there and I got the pinch hit when the games were outta reach. Last game we lost to the Dodgers. And I remember I worked on three and oh and had to take three and oh three and strike one right down Broadway.

Take again. Strike two. And then , I've got the swing three, two and grounded out this short. But man, those first two pitches I could have, I felt like I could have done some damage, but hey, when you're five, six runs down. Back then that's the way you played the game. You made 'em throw strikes, yeah. And that's the way it was supposed to be played. And I agree with that approach. You played in a great era of baseball. That's for sure. Yeah, I did. Let's see, where are we now? So we're, so it's the end of 1975 and the Astros trade, Tommy Holmes to the Pirates.

January, you're the player to be named later, the infamous player to be named. And then you go to so it's 76 now, and you start off with Astros in, in Memphis. Is that right? And you're hitting 4 71 there and then you're called up at that at some point there. Yeah, they I was a little upset to be honest with you.

I, when I came to the Astros town Smith, yeah. It was a GM then and sure. He assured me I was gonna get a chance to make the club. Because, like I said, they lost 105 games before and he told me I was gonna be competing with my good friend Ennis Cabell. Yeah, sure. For third base. I played against Ennis in, in the minor leagues, and he played first base.

From Baltimore Orioles at that time. Yeah. So I'm figuring if he's coming a third, I've got an edge on him because I played third base all this time. Sure. And I remember telling tell if that's the case, you're talking to your third baseman right now, . And I remember saying, Hey, I like that attitude.

I like that. As it turns out, there wasn't competition in my book because I, I hit over 400 during the spring. , I made one error and that was like the one, the last game, or we came to the dome to play. And the ball, somebody hit me, we were playing, and I don't know what other team hit me ground ball.

The third hit the seam. Yeah. And took a nasty up. And I couldn't I booted it. Okay. And that was the only error I made. All spring eus made like 10 errors or something during the spring. Yeah. And I know I out hit 'em. Yeah. When they announced the team they said that we were in, we were playing in the Super Dome.

We finished in the Superdome in New Orleans. Sure. And I remember one of the coaches come up to me to tell me I had made the team, you made the team. . And I says, I know. I earned that. I . And he says Enis is starting at third base. And I What do you mean? I played 'em in the spring, I was told.

So I learned a valuable lesson there, . Yeah. Don't believe everything you hear. Yeah. And then a month later I'm sent the trip away. With only getting 12 at bats or something like that. All pinch hits I think. Oh. And I was one for 12 or something, or I know. I didn't hit her two for 12.

Okay. And so I went down to Memphis and I did like you said, hitting over 400, tearing the cover off the ball and the same thing. They're calling up different guys during this first few months of the season. And then back then the Major League team used to come down and play their Triple eight team.

To help raise money, raised funds for the AAA organization or whatever and Okay. And have the fans in triple a c major league players. Sure. I played that game and I went three for five against and hit the triple to beat the major League team that day,  that night. And I was, I forget how it went, but I was upset that I wasn't called up, with the big club.

And the same thing. They called me up, they, I think I waited until September. Okay. I got called up in September. Okay. And sat for 26 days or something like that without getting in a game. Oh.  that was, I was thinking, I went out of this organization now, right? As fast as I can. Sure. The last three or four games all of a sudden, I'm, I didn't even at that point, even look at the lineup card.

I used to just go to the outfield and start shagging, I wasn't gonna play. Yeah. And all the guys are coming up to me, have you played second base before art? Have you played second base? And I, we can, we pull each other's chain a little bit? Go goof out with each other. And I said, okay I know you guys want me to run all the way in there.

Look at the lineup card so you can all have a nice c, have a line, you're experience. So I said, but when Roger Metzker, our shortstop come up to me and said, Hey, have you played second base? Then I thought this is pretty serious. So I ran in. Yeah. And sure enough, I'm in lineup playing second base.

Okay. I'd never played second base in my life, . So I go to the circle, I'm waiting around the cage, take bp. I'm waiting to get my turn to hit in Vernon, bill Vern's, our man. Sure. He turns and looks at me and he says, you have played second base before, haven't you? I said, oh yeah, I've played a lot of it

And I'm thinking, you idiot. I go back out after my turn of hitting, I go to Roger. I said, tr you make all the calls on coverage and Sure. Steelers and Yeah. And to be honest with you, tr he was the best I ever played with. Yeah. You could close your eyes, run over there with your glove at your chest, and he hit it, put the ball right there every time.

That's how good he was. Yeah. So then I played those four games, or, and got a couple hits just about in every game. Yep. And called home. And my wife says, man, you're doing great. You're doing great. I says, yeah. I says, I've got a bad feeling. She says, why? I says, I, they're gonna keep me now as a utility man, because I showed I could play second, they know I can play third.

I says I was, in a way, I was hoping I wouldn't do so well, so Sure. Maybe just get rid of this guy. He can't help us. But the next year I did make the big club once again on the bench and playing behind. They traded for somebody. Rob Andrews, no. I can't think of.

but he, they gave him the second base job. Okay. And I'm sitting on the pine again. And finally the injuries trout cut hurt. They had him, and this guy was struggling, I can't even think of his name. Terrible. They finally put me out at second and I start doing, and I hit Sure. And they couldn't kinda take me out of the game Sure.

Off the team. So eventually, one thing led to another and I finally got a chance to start playing third base where I belonged . Sure, absolutely. And, but then they brought in, oh I should have done my homework on my history  on names. But yeah, I played first and third the last few years that I was with the Straus.

Yeah. But at least I was in the lineup. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So did you know anything about the Houston organization? Did you know Bill Verden from the Parrots organization? Was He was a, he was, I knew him as a player. Okay. Because I, he was a great center fielder. Sure. He could go get 'em.

Yeah. And he, his first year, he was rookie of the year or something like that with the Cardinals, I think when he came up. Okay. But he never really hit real well after that. But he hit decently. Two 70, something like that. Or for the pirates. But he could really play center field and he could.

and he was a hard-nosed player. And when I was coming to the Astros, I thought, man, that's the perfect guy I wanted to play for, it took a while before I got to play for, sure. But yeah, he was big on conditioning. I'll tell you, we were the best condition team in Major League baseball, but we seemed to always get off the slow starts.

And the Dodgers were the Dodgers. And we'd be six games out, 10 games into this season, yeah. They'd be coming outta the blocks doing well, but, I learned, you learn from other people's mistakes. For me, bill wanted us to get hit, live pitching, get used to it.

, but he wouldn't let the pitchers throw with the screen in spring training. He wanted them to get used to fielding the ball. The pitchers didn't want anything hit back at 'em to get hurt. Yep. So nobody got anything out of it. The pictures threw everything inside. Sure. So they wouldn't get hurt, anything out over the plate.

They might, I think one day bull hit Ken force with a line drive and that was it. The word got out, yeah. So we really didn't get anything to swing at. And another thing, he was a stickler on. On fundamentals, which he should be, but Right. You get two bunts a hit and run in six swings.

Okay, if you didn't get the bunt down, that was one less swing. You got every bunch you screwed up. Was one less swing. There were times when guys didn't get a swing because we're facing live pitching. Just came out of the, up northeast somewhere from the winter, but you haven't seen live pitching since last summer.

And all of a sudden you're facing JR. And Nie throwing knuckle balls, , he's wait, trying to bump the ball. That's Dolan throwing. He, I know what he wanted, guys to get used to that and Right. The concentrate on getting it done so you could get your swings.

But in the long haul, it, we just didn't get our reps was swinging and it showed early in the seasons. So I learned from that when I managed. I bet. Yeah. So what was Barton like to play it, like to play for, as a manager? Because he was known as I understand it, just a, just an old school type of manager.

Yeah, he was, he was a, he, from what I've heard and what I've experienced when he was a coach, he was up unbelievable. He was easy to talk to. He was outgoing, whatever.  when he managed, he put a wall up around him. Okay. For whatever reason. And I remember when I went in the first time, I was gonna manage winter ball.

I went in at the end of the season because I knew he managed winter ball also. Sure. And I asked him for his advice. And you know what he told me, and I'll always remember it, he said, don't get too close to your players cause it'll, it could affect your decision making. Okay. Which made sense to me. But I think he took it to an extreme Right. Whereas, I got close to my players, but sometimes you gotta make a decision for the team, and if it, if you're gonna hurt a player in his mind that's, it's a tough business and you gotta do it. Sure. But you can explain it to him in a nice way that, you know from what I understand he he would call guys into his office wherever the situation was and he would just flat out tell them in no uncertain terms that you weren't very good or this guy's better than you, or whatever.

The, he was a little rough around the red. I remember I went in, I had a nine game, nine game hitting streak, something like that. OIS hitter on the team. And he pinched hit for me with Denny Walling. One of my best friends. My best friend is, We were an independent race at that time. And Denny I think hit a sack fly or whatever to help us win the game.

. But I was upset because I think I was the hottest team. Hottest hitter in the league, let alone  on the team. And I remember after the game, I went in to talk to him about it. I said, bill, what do I have to do to get a chance to hit in that situation? His answer was, get used to it.

It's gonna happen more often. Wow. That's the way he said it. And that's when I wanted to go over the desk , I can imagine. And let him know how I felt , but I turned around and walked out. And from that point forward, when young guys, every spring, bill would say, in his initials, talks to the team, my door's always open.

If you want to talk about something, come on, you're welcome to come on in. . And I would tell all the new players and all the young guys, you better think twice before you go in. Yep. Cause you may not like what you hear. Yep. Absolutely. . So what did you take from so in, in that vein, what did you take from his managerial style and what did you not take with you when you managed?

I conditioning, I thought conditioning was really important. He was really good with that. , I think he used his bench pretty well. , he was consistent. That was one thing that Bill was, he was very consistent. I think your players have to know that you're gonna be consistent with what you're doing and how you affect the game.

Sure. But but I also learned, to be more open to the players through his not being that open. That was just his style. Sure. And it was funny, one day Terry Pool and I, we got rained out in Philly. Okay. And I had a friend's rent a car to use, and we were down at the front desk and we were asking the person behind the desk where a place we'd go for dinner.

And Bill and Gene Coleman, our strength and conditioning coach, were right there. And they were looking for a place to eat. And I figured I'll ask him if they want to come with us. I figured, bill would say, no, I'm not gonna be with the players, on an off night here.

No. And behold, he says, yeah, we'll go with you. What do you know? I remember TP gave me an elbow in a room was like, whoa. What? You ruin our night. We went out to eat. Yeah. And Bill was the life of the party. He was telling stories about his playing days. I was, it was the most fun evening I ever had with Bill in Gene Coleman.

It was. It was great. The next day, TP and I are walking down the street in Philly and here comes Bill the other way. And he looked, he just walked right past us.  didn't even say hello. Right on brand. Right on brand. TP says something's never changed . So that's just the way he was. Yeah. Oh man.

What a character. So what was it like to play in the dome and you had to maybe adjust the plate to plane on the turf with the scene with the seams with the way the Astrodome feel was constructed and the AstroTurf and then with the crowd in the ways and those type of things.

And the air conditioning. Yes. And the ac Sure. They were blowing straight in from, that big exploding scoreboard that we used to have. Sure. From right center, left center, if you didn't crush the ball and I mean crush it you weren't hitting it out. And only like maybe one or two hitters on each team had the power to go dead center.

Sure. And it was the AstroTurf you had to get used to playing our AstroTurf was different than every other AstroTurf because it was on dirt. You remember the. The rodeo they had every winter. So they'd just lay the turf on top of that. And it wouldn't be snug on the dirt in a lot of places.

It'd be a soft spot. Ah, okay. And that's why it was tough fielding ground balls in the Astrodome. You had to really stay with it. And the seams, they had the seams around the dirt areas. Yeah. You could lose a lip if you weren't careful. If that makes t p's 9 93 major league record feeling percentage even more oppressive.

Exactly. Wow. Yeah. Tp he was solid. Solid. I got to play with a lot of great players and Sure. Great teammates and yeah. But the dome was a, it was different, it was tough to hit for power and what it did, it taught me to hit the ball on the ground more. Okay. Because I wasn't gonna leave going center, the right center.

I worked on getting on, I actually spent a whole winner hitting the ball the other way. Okay. Until I got two strengths. Okay. And I worked on that mostly when I had a man on first base. That big hole was on that side. Sure. And I tried to hit that hole and and the key was getting on top of the ball cuz your swing starts low and comes up through the zone.

And if you didn't kick stay tall on the backside going that way, yeah. You'd fit another lazy fly ball or a pop up in the infield. So I really worked hard on hitting it, on getting on top of the ball and hitting it that way. And it really helped me. I hit over 400 that year, a winter ball. And I really, it came to the point that I remember Shortstops used to switch when I came up and  they know maybe a hit and run might be in order.

They'd have the shortstop cover rather than the second basement. Okay. And so I got wind of that and started trying to pull the ball through that hole short too. But there you go. That was a, a guessing game. Yep. But yeah, I learned to hit the ball on the ground, hit line drives cuz there's a lot of room in the outfield.

And and you hit on the turf. You could get in the alley in a hurry. And even and and so  let me share a personal story here just for a second. So it's 1979 and it's the first week of September. Giants are in town and it's late in the game. There's one, I think there's one on, one on one out.

Johnny the master comes up, he nails one, he crushes one somehow out to out the center. Jeff Leonard can't round it up. And I can still hear him crashing into the wall cuz it was such a loud thud. Yeah. In there. Pull TP rounds it up, he throws it back in. He throws it into Craig Reynolds cuz it's such a long throw.

So you had two cuffs. Oh yeah. So he throws it to. Then to land histo and then home, and then he made it by an eyelash. But it was an exciting, he got it, but not by much, but it was an exciting play. And I share that just to, to express what a, a large park the Astrodome was and how expansive was.

Yeah. I can't remember. Was it 4 0 8 or something like that? Or four? It was four 12 or something. Dead center. 4 0 8. Yeah, I believe. But with the air conditioning unit, like I said, it was a long way out there for Jimmy Windy to hit all the home runs He did. If he played in another ballpark, he would be up there with all the home run records because the toy cannon was something special.

 Did you ever go up to the upper deck where he and Doug Rader hit those home runs? Oh yeah, we did. You see how far that was? Yeah. That's in another atmosphere.  . Yeah. That's just, that's unbelievable up there. That hit a bow up there, but yeah, very few people did go up there. I remember the bowl and the playoffs went up there on us

Oh yeah, absolutely. . So was there a, so speaking of stadiums was so how important was it to, when you went into another stadium maybe that you weren't really familiar with, hadn't played there a whole lot. How important was it to know those dimensions or to get out there and get a little work in before the game started?

That's why we always had early hitting when we went on the road. Yeah. First day in, we'd have three o'clock or four o'clock, we'd get the field for an hour. Okay. And that's when you would get out and if you were an infielder, get the ground balls and everything and then see the foul lines to see how much foul room you have for a popup along the sidelines.

But I remember Tony Gwen, when he would come into the Astrodome , he would throw balls off our scoreboard on right field  and see the well, the way that would bounce off it Sure. get an idea of Yeah. Where the dead spots were and where it would bounce from there. So Yeah. Yeah.

The good outfielders would do their homework. Absolutely. Sometimes  if they didn't do their homework, it cost 'em a game. I bet it would. And that's, that just speaks to why someone like, like Tony Gwen was a Hall of Famer. Yep. Absolutely. So was, so with Stadium still was there a favorite stadium or ballpark that you particularly like to play or manage in Wrigley Field?

I love to play in Sure. Yeah, the ivy on the walls reminded me of Fords field the stadium that I grew up going the park, watching them play. Sure. But the fans there are right on top of you. And back then they were pretty rabid,  and a lot of fun. They'd throw the ball back if you hit a home run with the game then.

But I just loved the ballpark. I saw the ball. There, that the ivy on center field, that the thing they had out there in center, you could see the ball really well, but on days when the wind's blowing in, it wasn't a great ballpark to play in. I can imagine. Because you could hit a ball and not

And I see the  running in on it. . So how did that compare to playing candlestick with the same thing? Same thing basically. But Candlestick you could set your watch to . I think it was like two in the afternoon, the winds would pick up. Gotcha. So in the 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock when you were taking batting practice, it was beautiful.

Sure. What  what a shock. You're out there, it's a beautiful day. You're throwing bp, you're taking bp, getting ground balls, and then around one 30 or two, something like that, you could, here comes, the winds coming in off the bay. Yep. And we used to call it the hawk. The hawk was out, man,

And you could see major league infielders, look embarrassed, the ball would be hit to an outfielder and the shortstop would catch it. Oh yeah. But you'd see shortstop would start running out and all of a sudden it put the brakes on turn in reverse and running back in. And I got one, my rookie when I was with the parts.

Yep. I'm playing third base and Willie MCC Covey's up. Oh wow. And the hawks out, the wind's blowing from right field straight in, yeah. To towards home plate. Oh man. And we got the shift on, I'm the only guy on the third base side of second base playing short stuff. So Willie hits this ball off the bat.

I say, oh, that's down the left field line. I start, I just drop my head and take a first few strides and I look up and there's no baseball. You talk about a panic of I look and now I look back in towards the dugout. And the ball's going that way. Now I make a left-hand turn and I'm coming, , coming down the track, which is in fall territory right in front of our part.

I got, and I lay out and I make a shoestring in the top of my web catch , and that's everybody in the cracked up . But that ball was down the left field line, and it ended up right in front of our dugout. That's a heck of a play you made. I was pretty, pretty thrilled that I made it, but if I hadn't looked up when I did, I, it would've just dropped.

The catcher never even went for it because he thought it was down the left. And it was probably an easier play for him just running over in front of the dug on. Sure. . But that's the way it was. You hit a ball in the left center or out on the right. The wind would just knock it down. And for Maze to hit all those home runs playing a candle stick.

Incredible. Just incredible. He was a pretty strong guy. Yeah. He didn't cheat himself. Oh heck no. . I remember I played in an old timers game with him when I first retired, and I got to shake his hand and his hand just swallowed my hand up. That's how big his hands and fingers were.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was a thrill just to shake his hand. Oh man. Say, Hey, . He was, man. He was. He was a great player. Oh, he was. He was a great player. With all those home runs in the Catch in the Woods series. What is, what a catch, huh? Yep. , you're not gonna say too many of those. Yeah. We'll be seeing that forever.

So lemme ask you, speaking of the World Series, just take taking it back for a second. Were you at the 1960 World Series game when Maslowski hits the walk off? No, I just came home from school. I was in school and watching it on tv. Okay. And and I told my mother, I said, see Mascot hit a fastball.

Okay. He has his problems with the breaking stuff. Sure. And I'm pretty sure, is it Stafford or somewhere or Tracy Staler or whatever he pitching for the Yankees. Okay. And he got behind him two. Oh, and I said to my mother, he may hit a home run here, mom . And I swear to God, man he hit that ball  and my whole neighborhood went up.

Everybody was outside jumping up and down. All cross Pittsburgh. And the next day they had like a parade downtown. Yeah. Yeah. And one of my rodes took me to it and I they were in these convertibles coming down. Yeah. And I got to shake Elroy Face's hand. Yeah. And I didn't wash it for about two or three days after

But that was great. That Pittsburgh just. , it was alive then that was what a wonderful feeling that was Championship club. I bet. I bet that's a, that's good stuff. That is good stuff. So let me talk about let me move on here for a second too. Just some of your Astros teammates, and I want to ask you about some of the nicknames.

So we talked about the Bull, Bob Watson Trout, Roger Metzker Cool Pool, Terry Pool. And you've mentioned before the Ra Raphael Landito. And I wanted to ask just a little bit, or just in general, how do baseball players get their names? Get those nicknames? Yeah, get those nicknames. I think Trout probably because he loved the fish.

Sure. I think that was probably how Trout gott his, is it something that that the player does or something about the man? Sometimes. Sometimes it is like Scoop, scoop Oliver. Al Oliver. So he was, he played first base originally, and he's scooping it out of the dirt.

So they called him Scoop. Okay. And that stuck on him. You, I stuck with them. Let me think of some more names. Got Pops Willy Cole Poll, he was just Cole. Yeah, he was Cole as the other side of the pillow, . He was just that co of a player, yeah. I don't know if he ever got dirty, he was like we didn't after to together fielded every time he was like, Garvey, Steve Garvey.

That's what we used to. He'd slide and he wouldn't get dirty. He was Mr. Perfect, Mr. Clay . Yeah. But . Yeah. I'm sure everybody got their nicknames for reasons. Rat Raphael Landis, or I think it was just he was just small and the guys just called him Rat. You just, the way he just kinda moved.

Yeah. The way he moved and whatever. Yeah. That was good. And we talked about we talked about Roger Metzker a little bit that you mentioned before in another conversation we had that you played with a Hall of Fame sh shortstop in another city, but that metzker was better than any of those other guys that you played with.

Yes. And can you talk a little more about what made him so special in that way? First of all, I think, I don't know if anybody knew how strong his arm was. Okay. Trout had a cannon, he really did. And to prove that he ended up playing shortstop in the major leagues with two of his fingers. He had a terrible accident over the off season, and there he is throwing with, parts of his fingers and throwing the first base and he's hitting as well. Yeah. In San Francisco when he, was towards the end of his career there. That's an amazing thing to, to say about, but he had great range.

He had quickness and he studied. , the opponents, he knew their tendencies. Were they gonna hit the ball and and like I said, turn a double play. He'd put it right there every time. Boom. Right there. You never had to reach behind you to reach, never have to reach down. Yeah. Over your head. It was chest tied.

Boom. Right there. Every time. And your, you're turned the first. And like I said, he had great range and fundamentally sound. Yeah. And that's where, os I played with Ozzie Smith and  obviously people probably say he's the greatest short stuff defensively. And that's cause he did things acrobatic.

He was a specimen physically. Sure. But trout was more fundamentally sound. Okay. Ozzy would jump up in the air to throw the, the second part of the double play. Sometimes because he did that, he didn't have a whole lot on the throne. The guy would beat it at first bang and be safe.

Trout, he'd come across that bag, never happened. Here comes a bb, he's throwing the seed to the first base. Never threw it off balance. Just picture. Perfect. There you go. Yep. Very good. Very good. So in, in 1979 you managed in the winter leagues with the Vaccaro State did Bayamon Puerto Rico team where you had you had.

And correct me if I have the wrong team here, but is this when you had guys like Darryl Evans there? I played with Darryl Evans. You played with him? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I played with the, he was a character , I played with Griffy. Yeah. Griffey Sr. Senior Sure. And Dan Dreesen. Yeah. We had some great players on the team and that's what I loved about playing winter ball because you got a chance to play alongside opponents that you play against Right.

During the regular season. Yeah. And pitchers, a lot of pitchers that from other clubs that you got to know and to face, they pitched on other teams down there, so you, it would give you an edge if there's a young player that was on Triple A trying to get to the big leagues, you may have faced them all winter long.

. And now he came to the big leagues to pitch against your team. Like the Astros. So you know him a little bit so I could tell everybody what the guy had. Back then we didn't have all the films on all the pictures there. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell them, Hey, this is what he throws, this is what he likes to throw.

And it so it was an edge that you had facing them. Plus, it helps your teammates prepare for the game. Sure. But winter ball, to be honest, this is hard to say. , but I may have enjoyed winter ball more than the playing in the big leagues. That's how much fun it was. seems like there's some different elements to it that you.

Have had in the May. The fans. The fans. You talk about rabid fans. Yeah. Every stadium you went to. They were sure they were going crazy for their team, and there'd be fights in the stands and they're betting on every pitch. It was it was something to a to behold they would be hanging from the light towers kids just to see the game.

That's how much they loved the sport. Sure. And we used to sell up my first couple years at Bayone they had a rollaway tarp. That was unheard of in Winter Bowl. We had that. And but to stand, it was just a new ballpark. So every night we sold out. Okay. And our side of the fans stands would be for us.

The other side, it would be our opponents. And it was just exciting. The playoffs down there. It was life and death, every game was, the fans were into it. They traveled to and from in cars, we, everything was, you were there within hours. But I just loved it. The fans were they loved it when you gave out, they gave a, gave your total effort, right?

If you JD it. Yeah. I saw a couple guys that went through the motions. They booed 'em right off the island. Yeah, because they know  when you're not putting out they know they, they've seen enough baseball. Yep. So is that a, so it's Winter league, but what was the kind of the structure of the season?

Is it,  is it November, December at that time? Yeah, it started like in October. Okay. Yeah. Late mid, mid-October. Okay. Like you go down for a week of batting practice and taking ground ball to your team. Okay. And I'm trying to recall, I think you, you have six imports on each team. Ah, okay.

So from major league teams or from AAA teams You could, and you had a working agreements usually with one or two major league teams. Each team down there. So they would recruit, when I got to the Pirates Jose Pagan was our, away was our minor league. Minor league was our winner ball manager.

Okay. So he recruited me to come play. Ah, okay. Because I wasn't getting to play much, on the parts. But he liked what he saw. He wanted me to come play for him and winter ball. And that's how he got there. And Griff and those guys, they were just young guys at the major league level and just Sure.

Up and down type thing. And that's how you got a chance.  show what you could do. Plus, for me, it gave me an edge because we were finished and the playoffs are over, it's in February. We turn right around and go to spring training A week or two later. I've been playing shape, I've been facing pitching and I'm ready to go.

Whereas everybody else who didn't play winter ball, they're coming back, just starting out. They're starting off from slow. They're trying to get their timing, trying to get their conditioning. Yeah. You're in playing shake, you're ready to go. Hitting the ground running. And I think that's what kept me in the big leagues all those years.

That was a big advantage for you then. Yeah, I played four years. In the fifth year I would've played, but I broke my finger the last month of the season with the Astros? Correct. And my eligibility expired after that year. Okay. And that's when I started managing winter ball. Okay.

The same team I played for the gm recognized the fact that I might want to get into managing. Ah, and since I wasn't allowed to play I knew the league inside out. Cause I played four years in a row. Sure. And some guy by the name of Boggs that got him to take my place a year. I couldn't play. I guess he did okay.

Right.  Will you beat me to the punch There was, I was gonna ask you, I'll ask you how did managing that team come about? And did you think that managing that, not only there but down the road might be in your future too. Yeah, that was something I was thinking about.

 Maybe hoping that maybe I could line up. At the last part of my playing career, I was hoping to get the word out my last year, to the third base coaches because I was playing third. And coaches from other teams, say, Hey, this is gonna be my last year if, if you need a minor league manager.

I'd be interested. But they beat me to the punch. , I was only in the about 10 days in the show before Whitey gave me the he ho . But Bobby Valentine hired me as a coach, a month later. Yeah. So that's what really helped me. But managing in a minor leagues, I mean in winter ball, I think really was a stepping stone for me cuz we were very successful too.

That helps when you win  when he takes care of a lot of things. Yeah. Very good. Very good. , so let me ask you, so lemme ask you about this one. So it's 1980 with Astros and it's getting a little bit late in the season. Your legs start to wear about, wear down a little bit on you.

And Earl Campbell had, I guess taken a page outta Joe NAIT's book and not for support, but he used pantyhose, I think to keep warm. But your teammates resorted to call you Mrs. Howell. Yeah.  In the locker room. So I have to, I'm gonna blame Joe Nama for this, , but.

But I have to ask if they actually worked or that situ I guess they didn't hurt . Yeah. It was a little embarrassing putting them on . Yeah. I took a ribbing on that one, but yeah, I was, my legs were bothering me so much. I figured I gotta try something, anything's gonna work. But it was my my achilles on both my heels.

Okay. Were just inflamed and I played that year mostly on taking, painkillers the whole year. It was no fun. Yeah. Each morning I was walking like a cripple when I get out of bed and had to get 'em moving a little bit before. But I think I, taking those pain feels messed my stomach up after that.

They sure will. Yeah. Taking 'em for so long it, I'd have trouble, I have trouble taking those kind of things now. Sure. So was it was it something, was that something that just re resulted from Plano on the turf so much? It was actually a winter bowl, I, we had a three steps coming up out of the dugout.

Okay. And I'd be standing the whole game basically. And  a few times late in the game, I would come firing out of the dugout to argue a call somewhere . And one, each time it was grab me like I tore my Achilles slightly. Okay. Yeah. My gas truck muscle where, wherever that is. Yeah, it was. , that was it.

And then I didn't wanna get surgery on it because, I'd be missing playing time and Right. And as long as I could take the pain I'd play. That's a long recovery from an Achilles, f 40 years ago. Yeah. It's a lot different than today. Yeah. Exactly. , if you recovered it all. Oh, man.

Let me ask you a little more about the 19, about the 1980 team. So in the clubhouse you had guys like your friend, Denny Walling, Jose Cruz, Dave Smith, Verne Rule, Cesar Frank LaCorte, and Dave Birdman to name just a few. Yeah. Can you talk about that team in that clubhouse a little bit?

It reminded me of the, my Pirate Clubhouse when I first came up. Yeah. The confidence we had. Yeah. We really believed in ourselves. We finally had come to the point where we realized we were ready to win. And we had, when I first got there, we were taking it on the chin on with regularity. And then we Tal Smith did a great job of acquiring some talent.

Obviously a guy named Olan Ryan. Yeah. JR. Richard came into his own , of course, JR had the stroke that year. So that was the downer for that season. But yeah. The pitching staff that he put together , Joaquin, Andrew Har, Vern Roll, who stepped in after JR. Went down.

Did a tremendous job. . Yeah. So we had a great pitching staff, our bullpen with LaCorte, Sam, Beto, and Smith. Yeah. Those three guys are, they're top of the line. Yeah.  If we had a lead after six innings, forget it. We felt like we were taking it to the house. Yeah. This game's over and they did a great job and we knew that coming into the postseason, that's what we needed.

Pitching. Yeah. Pitching's the name of the game and we had it. So it was just a matter of, getting a job done. But we had injuries in the postseason, C Cesar Yeah. Blowing his ankle lot. Hitting the bag wrong. It's, it just seemed like something always seemed to go wrong and just wasn't meant to be.

Great. Great seasons. Great seasons for sure. But I wanted to, I want to ask you about about the 163rd game of the season the 1980 season. It's October the sixth, and you have a big day at the plate. You have four rbi, two of which came on a two run single, and then you also had a clutch two run home run off of Dave Golds.

Who at the time, you described as having thrown you a hanging hook. Can you walk us through that, that about a little bit and what that and if that was a patient you were looking for at the time? Yeah. When I was up he got the count. To I'm trying to think exactly what the count was.

It was, I think it was one and two. Okay. Had me one and two, and he threw me a curve ball that started at a little above the strike zone. And he folded me I into the top part of the strike zone. Okay. And I dipped down a little bit. Okay. And Doug Harvey was a home plate umpire. And Joe Ferguson was a catcher.

Yeah. And Harvey says, ball, I couldn't believe it. I thought I knew it was strike three. And Fergie knew it was strike three. . And Fergie went ballistic. . He's yelled at Doug, you can't bitch that. Miss that pitch. Let's try three. Let's go. And I remember I stepped outta the box and I looked back at Harvey and he said, art, don't take that pitch again.

And I swear it was all of a sudden the identical pitch. He threw the next pitch and I hit it outta the ballpark, the left center. And when I crossed home, played perky, was still screaming at him, . And I said, I didn't . It just kept going. . Oh geez.  so you also mentioned that you celebrated a little bit on the home run.

Trite, but only, but really only because they had done the same thing in the previous three. To force the playoff in, they had come back in the ninth inning, the tie games that we had to lead in. And then beat us in extra innings each time. And I don't think I did any, I just, I was on cloud nine running around those bases.

Sure. Probably one of the faster home run trouts routes you ever saw. But I never felt the ground under my feet, I'll tell you that. And just on cloud nine. I bet. Yeah. It was, that's the kind of moment that you wish everybody in the world could experience. Seriously. I was on Cloud nine and that's about as happy as I've ever been as a player for sure.

Very good. What a great moment. Yeah. So let me ask you too about so in the same vein with the Astros and the Dodgers, can you talk about the intensity of the rivalry in those in late seventies and early eighties at that time? Oh yeah. I still remember Cece  going into Jaeger.

He went airborne with those feet , because they were allowed to block the plate back then. Yeah. And Cece's coming a mile a minute coming around third and Yeager's blocking home plate and CE went airborne and he just wiped Jaeger out. Oh. And , I think they had to pick up pieces of Jaeger all around home plate.

And he was safe. And Steve was a pretty big guy. Oh yeah. He was tough. Tough son of a gun and Yeah. Yeah. Cece wiped him out at the plate. And and there was no love loss between us and the Dodgers. Yeah. Because they were our thorn in the side for so many years, and we finally got there and were able to beat 'em.

That was and it was sweet, obviously, to finally win our first division championship and to do it in Dodger Stadium Exactly. To boot. Yep. But it cost us big time because it cost us Joe Nero. Joe w that was his 20th, one of the season. He would've started the playoffs for us. He was our ace that year.

20 winner. 20 game winner. And because he pitched that game, he could only pitch one game against Philly. Which he beat like one to nothing. And they would've never touched Joe the way he was throwing the ball that year. Yeah. And so instead of having them pitch two games in that series we only got 'em to throw one. With it being a, to me that was a difference in that series. And then that was a five game series Plus JR. Wasn't available. So those two pitching situations cost us, cost me a ring. That's pretty well, I mean that, that's a pretty critical thing that happened though.

Tell me about Yeah, I don't think people realize how much that hurt us because the very next day we started the playoffs, we flew up to Philly and went, the next afternoon we went to the ballpark and start first game of a five game series. So just the five. So you flew out that night after?

After the win. After the win. Okay. Got there in the early morning. Sure. Hours. Yeah. Slept fast. Like we always said, sleep fast,  and went right to the ballpark and ended up losing that first game, but came back. Yeah. Yeah. . Yep. What a series. It's so four of those five games went to extra innings.

So can you talk about a little more maybe about how tough of a series that was? It was, first of all, the loudest I ever heard the dome. Sure. Our fans were just unbelievable. Yeah. Couldn't ask for more support or better support. One side of the stadium when Yo Houston the other side when Yo Astros Yeah.

It was reverberating. You were shaking, your body was vibrating. It was so electric. That's what it was. And to experience that here in Houston at that time was really thrilling and exciting for everybody. But each game came down to, the extra innings could go either way. And there was one crazy game where, the umpire the commissioner overruled the call.

It was game four. And so burn rules was pitching. So he so in that instance, he feels the comebacker and then assuming that in that moment he's caught it, you double off thrower at first. Yep. And then you run the ball. You've got the wherewithal to run the ball down. The second I was gonna throw it, but I figured I saw the guy who was on second all the way to third.

Why throw it, accidentally throw it the left field. Exactly. I'm gonna run it down there. Yeah. So I ran down, stepped on it. Triple play inning over.  and then all of a sudden they're all getting together, what's going on here? And they went over to the commissioner and they rule that he short hopped the ball.

And because it took so long for me to get the second, I guess they said he could've gotten back. So something like that. I said, what do you mean? Could've if he was coming back, I would've fired it to second get the triple play that way. Exactly. But when I didn't have to throw it, why not?

Why r otherwise? So that's what he ruled that, it was a double play but not a triple play. And that was the only thing. It couldn't have been because it was either one out or T three outs. Because once he threw it to me and the guy was standing on first. So the runner's out, but he's safe coming back.

And the guy on second would've been safe, because there's no force play there. So Nick, they totally screwed that call up. Totally. And then later there's a sh shoestring catch and right field or no catch that they called a catch and then they overruled it, called it a safe, it was a double

They had those two calls were all messed up. That was an extra innings, I think. And the Yes. And the Philly scored runs on that. I don't, but it was a seesaw battle that last game. And heartbreaking to lose it. It was the only time in my career. I saw 25 guys crying in a clubhouse. And it was heart wrenching to be honest with you, because we honestly believe we had a better team.

We had a better team than the Phillies. And Greg Gross was my roommate, my first year here in Houston. Now he was with the Phillies and Right. They went on to play Kansas City in the World Series. . And he called me halfway through the World Series. He says, art said, this is disappointing. I said, what are you talking about?

He said, the World Series to me was our series. He says, this isn't even exciting. He says, it's, I've waited my whole life to play in the World Series. And it's down. He says, it's no, there's no excitement playing this series. Compared to playing you guys. Yeah. And that's, and I think that's pretty much the consensus with that series, like in L C s World Series, whatever, like that was, that 1980 N O Cs was one of the best series ever in baseball history.

Playoff history, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yep. Just the wrong team won. Yep. And it, I think it would've happened had it again, had it been a seven game series, but it's only a five game series back then. Yeah. I know. Yeah, definitely because we have more depth in a pitching staff than they did.

and then you get Nero back for a second game, potentially in game six or seven Exactly. At that point. Yeah. But it was, that was an electric anele an electric year for sure. And , was actually, I was 10 years old. I was in the outfield with my family on the front row and left Oh, that right behind Luzinski and cruising everybody.

And you had a big lady named Triple to, to keep the Astros in the game. Yeah. At that point. And actually put us up five to two. And Vernon took me out of the game then. Wow. Yeah. Two odds Runner around. Third Uhhuh . Why pitch run for a guy? What do I, maybe he did it so I could get a hand because of the hit, but me and Joe Morgan, he took us both out that inning. The two veteran guys. And he put, they put Rat at second. Yeah. And he put they oh geez. Good friend of mine left-handed. He went down on one hand, on one knee, on the ground ball by UNC and had bounced over him. I never went down on Dave Bergman.

I was playing for Dave Bergman. Yeah, who was a very good defensive first baseman, but. . I wouldn't have played it the way he did. I sure.  I would've taken it in the face before it went down to right field . Oh, sure. Because it hit the seam and it did bounce over him. But he was down on one knee and you don't get down on one knee.

You get, you're upright a little bit, but that you could straighten up and take it off your chest. But if you put that knee, then you could flip it to the picture cover and the inning's over. But you put that knee on the ground,  that takes you away from Oh, yeah.

From doing that.  You can't get up. Yeah. So not easily. Not easily. But I remember me and Joe were in the clubhouse just fuming. He was livid that we weren't on the field. Yeah. That's the way it goes. So what did so in that game, so they've gotten know to Nolan a bit, the game's tied everything else.

How tough of a call is it to, and maybe in, in that situation to take the ball from a future hall of famer at that point. It's a, it is a big game. They're, they've, both teams, great teams game five they've scored they've tied it up. Yeah. I think the only question we had at that point, I might be mistaken, but he brought Ken Fortune, who was a starting pitcher, when we had Sam Beto.  Smith in LaCorte.  who were used to coming in out of the bullpen. And I think that was one of the questions us as players had. Sure. Why Ken? When he wasn't ever used as a bullpen guy. And obviously some more runs were scored. But we came back and tied it and it went extra innings and Right.

Eventually we came up on this short end of the stick. It was an exciting game, that's for sure. Yeah. But we didn't quit. And TP was unbelievable. TP just kept getting big hit after big hit. Yeah. He was definitely the player of the series. I know. At least on our side, hands down he hit over 500 in that stage.

Oh yeah. He raped. Yeah. He hit four, 12 or 14 hits or something like that. Something crazy. But on the other hand their second bassman who wore us out, man, trio. Man Trio, yeah. Great player also. Yeah. He had a great playoff. Yep. Okay. But we had a play at the play. I'm thinking of that series where Pete Rose ran through a stop sign and he was out from, he had just started his slide when the ball got the Boche Yeah.

And he couldn't field it. Yeah. I think that came up on him a little bit. Yeah. Okay. It came, I think it came in a. Yeah. And he didn't quite get it. And Pete was coming down the track, so Yep. And that's when you're allowed to run into the catcher. Yeah. And he did . Yeah. Yep. Oh man. Okay. So let's go to 1981.

So for no one, Ryan's fifth, no hitter, Terry pull no surprise, makes a great catch in that game to keep the no hitter alive. And then you seal the deal with a clean field of dusty baker's grounder, and you make that throw across the first to your pal Denny wall and you close out the game.

What was that excitement like on the field? And did that feel like as much of a team accomplishment as it did an individual accomplishment? For Nolan? Yeah. Because of t p's catch, without that, he doesn't have the knowit or Right. But you know that everybody was on their feet the last couple innings, every pitch.

Sure. And the funny thing was, I think I think I fielded at a popup once in the, during the game. I hadn't had a ground ball hit to me the whole game. , . And I'm down there at third base thinking maybe I don't want a ground ball hit to me , but actually I was saying to myself if Dusty hits me the ball I'm gonna get in front of it. In case if I boot it, it's an air. I'm not going to. Fail it to my side, make it look like it was a tough player or whatever. Yep. So he hit it and lo and behold, it was an in between hop and I Oh, please. And like I said, the on our turf, the dirt underneath the turf, you don't know if it's gonna hit a solid place or hit something soft.

But luckily it took a the hop I thought it would, I fielded it and as soon as I caught it, then he was still on his way to first base. So I'm saying I'm not waiting for him to get there. I'm leading him like a down and out pattern. . I threw it to the bag, , and he got to the bag in time, turned around and caught it.

That's why I wrote it in fire. It, if you see, I threw it almost three quarters and Right. Didn't really fire it across there because he wasn't there yet. Yeah. But I wanted it, the ball to definitely beat the runner. So I just flipped it on over there. . But I'm maybe mistaken, but I, one thing I really appreciated was, I think Nolan said if the ball was gonna be hit to anybody I wanted to hit to art.

So he felt confident that I would make the play for him. That's a pretty high compliment. Yeah. That was very nice. Very much so later in the 1981, in know, in the, in that season, the Astros were in the National League division series playoffs. Cause there's a. , there's a first half winner that year with that year with it being a strike year.

So the Dodgers won the first half, Astros won the second half and then and Mr. K Clutch Denny Walling comes up again in a big situation with to win game two on a walk off hit. Dodgers are a little too much in that series, and we talked a little bit about about not having JR at that time, not him, with him not being in the rotation but the rotation is still at that point.

It's Ryan Sutton, Neeper Nero and Rule, if I recall correctly. And that's pretty formidable. Formidable. But having JR would've been a game changer at that time as well. JR that was the best pitcher in baseball when he got, when he had his stroke, he really was. Yeah. Nolan obviously has always been a great pitcher, but, jr. When guys would come down to first base, they would tell me they would rather face Nolan than Jr. Because of that nasty slider he had. Yeah. Plus he still had a little bit of a reputation of being a little wild, which helps,  and I remember when he was pitching against the Dodgers.

They had almost an all right-handed lineup and Right. Tommy would never change it. Sure. He had two left-handers, two switch hitter. Oh, he had Rick Mun. Who was a, the only left-handed saw the left-hand hitter. Okay. Then he had. Reggie Smith movie, Reggie Smith Switch hitter. Okay.

They was the only two left-handed hitters in his lineup, and it was like a hot knife through butter. Sure. Because JR would just eat them alive and the only two guys he had to worry about were Monday and Reggie. And sometimes they would get some hits off 'em, but they were spread out. Yeah. He would strike out, 10 guys.

Yeah. 12 guys and a lot of feeble swings and Sure. Yeah. They, and they weren't digging in on 'em either. I bet not. Yeah. He really commanded the ball against the Dodgers. They, the one team at that time that would give him Jr trouble would be Cincinnati, because they had a lot of left-handed hitters.

Rose Griff. Yeah. Just up and down their whole lineup. They had a bunch of lefties and they gave him trouble. But anybody else in the league, it was over there was just lights out. Very good. Very good. So let me talk about a little bit about some minds mindset and some strategy things.

So the Astros have allowed you to become a free agent after the 83 season. And then we talked a little bit about your Achilles injury at that time. And can you can you talk about what you had to do at that time in the off season to get ready for 1984 with surgery?

Actually 83 I missed because of my elbow. I had Okay. I had torn I ligaments or whatever, and I had surgery in the off season before that, but it didn't work. And then had to have surgery again. Once spring training started, I trying to throw as like an electrical charge going off of my elbow.

So they transferred to Nerve. Okay. And obviously I was gonna miss the whole season, so I worked over the winter trying to get that arm going again. And the White Sox actually gave me a, an opportunity. I went to the winter meetings  on my own, just to talk to all the clubs that I could and anybody I knew Tony La Russa was the manager of the White Sox then.

And I had played Triple A Ball with Tony my first year in Triple So with Charleston, Charlie. Yeah. So I knew Tony there. Sure. And Tony knew the way I played and whatever. He gave me an opportunity to make his club in spring training about four weeks through spring training.

I guess maybe he realized that there wasn't gonna be a spot for me on his club. Okay. Which I think he really reached out to other teams. In the Cardinals since I played the National League, and Whitey knew how I played and Sure. They needed to backup up the Overfelt. Yeah. The third, yeah, that a right-hand hitter that platoon with them.

They gave me, they called me over the last two weeks of Spring, spring training and I made the team, minimum salary major league, but at least I was in the big leagues. And I needed a little over a year to get my full pension of 10 years in the big leagues. So as it turns out I got that with the Cardinals and I thank Whitey for that.

I gotta think I got it right to the day almost. Sure. And they kept a kid named yeah, Coleman, Vince Coleman over for me. Yeah, sure. . He could run a little better than me.  hit better at that time. Yeah. That was it. Very good. Very good. So let me ask you about, about hitting. So as a hitter, what is your, what's your focus in your mindset?

Like when you're in the on-deck circle, you can, the game's happening right there, obviously, but what do you, what are you thinking about? Early on when you first get to the big leagues, you know how you basically, you look fastball, right? And hit off it, try to keep your weight back, recognize the pitch, if it's not a fast ball, try to stay back as long as you can. , the breaking balls are much slower. So that you can still be in a position to, to drive the ball and put it in play. But as you play, as I played in the big leagues and got the face the same pictures over and over again. I always kept a book.

I kept a book on every bat that I had in the big leagues. Wow. And it would write down after the game was over the situation, if there was anybody on base, how many outs and put the pitch selection first pitch this if it was a striker ball. Okay. And the whole ba the whole at bat. And because in the big leagues go two, three months without seeing that same pitcher and then all of a sudden you face him.

You can't remember exactly how he pitched you three months ago. Sure. Because you face so many pitchers in between. You have so many pitches in a bat. So I would just sit down before the game and refresh my memory. And go over each of be how the pitches and whatever. And lo and behold, I found out the pitchers are creat cre, creatures of habit.

Yep. If they get you out a certain way, they're gonna continue doing it until you prove you can do , keep it from getting you out that way. Sure. So I became a guess hitter much more later in my career that I.  early in my career. Okay. And late in my career I would lay into weeds, so to speak. For a certain pitch. Okay. And I, because of a certain situation, and lo and behold, more times than not, I would get that pitch. The key was not to miss it. And, I became a pretty decent hitter and I could put the ball on the battle on the ball pretty good. So I would get 'em.

But once I got 'em, then I found out they start changing , their  their way pitching to me. So now I gotta relearn . Yeah. Know that happy hooting that got him once or twice. He used to start me off with the fastball, then go to his curve ball. That knuckle curve ball. Yeah. Which was nasty. Sure. So I finally start laying in the weeds on that first pitch, and it took him deep, a couple times, , and then all of a sudden knuckle curve ball first pitch said, oh, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But that was the fun of it, you I think in the picture and figured out what he was gonna do. That's the whole part of the game. Otherwise you're just, that's a  it's a different discussion here, but otherwise you're just hitting off a ba, a batty pack practice machine.

Yeah. If I can get it out. Plus I helped to the younger guys when they came up. First time facing a guy. Yeah. And I've given him what I had. Yeah. And this is what the, he likes to throw in. He sit and remember Billy Dorn taught me, thanked me so many times after that art, I can't tell thank you enough, because that's exactly what he threw me in that situation now.

I was looking for it. Yeah. Yeah. So it makes you feel good when you help the younger guys. There you go. Really? No, absolutely. So let me ask, lemme ask it like this. So when you step on the, in, in the box,  you talked about what you're trying to do a little bit.

You, you come up, you're trying to hit a fast ball, play off that, but can you really wait for your pitch with it, with, everyone's a major league pitcher now, right? So can you wait on in, in any kind of pitch that you prefer to hit? Or do you just do what you can with what's thrown?

You learn, I'm, when they say there's only one point so many seconds to react to the pitch, and all that stuff. . But as a major league hitter, believe it or not, you can kinda slow it down. And the more you play and the more you hit and the more in the groove you get if you're in a hot streak.

The ball looks big to you. It really does.  And you slow things down, right? And you're not jumping at the ball. And when you're struggling you're just trying to, your timing's all messed up. You're thinking about where your hands are, maybe, and should I stride bigger?

And then stride, then the ball's by you, right? Yeah. , yeah, it's, believe it or not, it's not as fast as it seems to what pitch, what fans see. Sure. Yeah. You literally see the spin of the ball, right? You sent me the fast ball's gonna look different than a slider or a curve or whatever.

The ball back spin's coming in at you, the slider, you got like a double dot, right? Spin, spit all the balls like a nickel dot , and if they throw it properly, sizzles, , gotta love it. And in the knuckle or the split finger? Yeah. Would tumble. It would just have very little rotation.

It was tumbling. Oh, okay. So you could see that, so it.  if you were paying attention, sure. You could see that stuff. Okay. And that's another problem when you start turning 40, like I did at the end, , your vision starts going and you couldn't see the spin as well. ,  good stuff. Good stuff.

So when you're not going well and you're trying to, you're trying to just hit everything and get a, get any hit to, to fall in and, how do you focus on, on, on just making contact when that situation is there, you're a little bit of a slump.

You're trying to get going again. How do you do that? And then I guess when you do, when you are in the midst of a slump, maybe of a sudden everyone's Ted Williams, they wanna give you hitting tips  and all that. So how do you stay focused in that time?

You go back to fundamentals, right? And really what you're thinking is up the middle. Yeah. You're gonna try to take the pass pole up the middle. Okay. That way if they throw you something off speed, you're gonna still be on time. Whether you could hit it to left field. Keep it in play. Sure.

But if you're thinking pull, right? Like most players do this these days, it looks and they throw you something soft. You can get full very much and be embarrassed with some of the pitches you swing in. But if you're thinking up the middle the other way you're gonna wait a little bit more on a fast ball.

That way when they do throw you something off speed, you're still gonna be on time. Okay? That makes all the sense on the world. So lemme ask you this as a player. If, when you're in the, when you're in the batter's box and you're picking up the signals from the third base coach, if you get a signal that's not to your liking or that you disagree with, is that even remotely an option as a player?

Not when I played. . Exactly. I'll give you an example on my hitting streak. My first time up. The first time up right. Playing. We got a guy on third base and one out and we're playing the Padres at the time. And I looked down at third base, I got the squeeze sign. Squeeze, yeah. First inning or second inning, whatever it was.

I'm gonna bun it right. So I bundled the ball. I think we scored, I think I got it down, but running hard to, first I blew out my hamstring. Okay. So I stayed in the game. Because I, I wanted to keep my streak going. Sure. It was probably, and at the time I didn't know the rules cuz it was a sacrifice.

the run scored, I was thrown out at first, but because there was no time at bat I could have come out of the game and it wouldn't have been counted as a time at bat. my streak would still been going. Yeah. But my mind, I'm saying I gotta stay in this game, try to get a hit. And it was killing me.

Oh man. So I'm at the plate and Right. , I felt like somebody just ripped the back of my hamstring off me. Sure. Trying. And I couldn't even swing the bat properly, but Right. So I took an O for four and, but at the time I'm thinking I'm the hottest hitter in the leg and they want me squeezing off this guy.

And I'm, and I got this streak going well, I bonded . Yeah. And I wish I hadn't at this point, or just say I missed the side . And did you take a fine for that? Yeah. Oh yeah. You fine. Can't point. Yeah. Yeah. But I was a, I'm a team player, if I I'm told to do something, I'm gonna do it.

Absolutely. Yeah. I don't know if leper Don Levert was a third base coach, if he accidentally gave it to me without knowing it. Whatever. I dunno. He was with you in Pittsburgh as well? Yeah, he was the coach hitting me the ground balls that told me, Hey son, get me outfield. . There he is.

And here he is coaching for me. So why very. Very I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, that's alright. So there are a lot of different things and books and stories that I've come across in my 52 years. And there's a guy, that guy named Greg Pryor, played short for Kansas City, for the Royals and the White Sox.

And he wrote a book recently in the last, a couple years or so. And he recalls a story where he's in the field, I forget which team it is. Kansas City or Chicago White Sox. And he's he's out there, he is at short, and he gets a signal from the dugout Hey, Pryor Shade over this way, a little bit towards the hole.

. . He doesn't move. And , so the dugout is frantically waving at him, obviously to move over. Do what they ask him to do from the situation. So the inning ends, he comes off the field, and then in the tunnel, one of his coaches is about an inch from his nose.

And he tells him in no uncertain terms, is he ever to disobey an order from his dugout. And this, and his coach was somebody with that played for the Indians that he actually grew up watching and idolize it. Yeah. . And so he got the message pretty quickly, loud and clear. Let, unclear, yeah. , yeah. Times have changed though, . Now they have . I've seen it on tv. They've got little cards on their wrists and yeah. Flip it open to see where, sure. We used to have team meetings that you're supposed to pay attention and go over each hitter. This is where you play 'em right now. I guess they don't, maybe they don't have the team meetings.

They have these cheat sheets for the hour . Oh time times have changed. Let me ask you so it's 1977 you're at Wrigley and Mark Lalo was pitching. Okay. And it's well documented that he had  a little bit of a tirade that day, got thrown out of the game ejection the whole bit.

But he had a, I thought he had I watched it. I thought he had a pretty legitimate beef and with the umpire, it was Dutch Renard that day. He throws it what it looks like just right down Broadway. And so he overreacts and that whole situation. So how does what's the situation like in, in that regards?

What's a situation like that where a player takes a real exception to something that the umpire has done? I remember when I was first managing the Astros, okay. We were out in San Francisco. It was one of my first injections, I think. Okay. And is it Larry. pH. Slider, slider for us.

Anderson. Anderson. Yeah. I bring him, we got like a five two lead in the bottom of the seventh inning and Okay. And I won't see who the umpire was, . I understand. And that's just fine. And Larry never complained, sure. He's strong. Boom. Slider catcher's not moving his mi ball, right? Oh no. He ends up walking and Larry's visibly upset on the mound.

So I finally, they get a hit and run scores and I go out to him, I says what's going on, Larry? He says, art, I'm throwing the ball right down Broadway. And he's calling him balls. And Craig Reynolds is playing shortstop for me. Okay. And Craig, you know he is a minister now, right? Yeah.

Craig says, yeah, art, those are strikes and he's calling him balls. I don't know where he has to throw the ball to get a strike call. So I go back in , finally get outta the inning. But we they go ahead, so Craig Reynolds leads off for us the next inning. Okay. And the first pitch, Rayquan.

And I see Craig step back and say something to the homeplate umpire Right now, the home plate umpire steps in front of Craig. On standing on home plate, getting in his face. I know Craig wouldn't say Boo if he saw a ghost, swear, I think darn. Might be the worst he says, yep, I come running out and this gives me my shot.

Yeah. So I said to Craig, what's going on out here? He and the umpire says, you see what he said to me? I said, what did he say to you? He says, funny. That was a ball last half inning, . Exactly. And I says, that's right, . And then I got in the guy's face and I told him the tighter the game got the tighter, you know what he got

And it gave me the he, but at least I got my 2 cents worth it. And Will Clark told me, you're right, skip, when I was walking down to Wright Field, time to go to our clubhouse, he said, you're right, Artie stinks. . Oh man. So lemme me tell you, let me relay another story here. So I read the biography, I think it's biography, autobiography.

I'm not, I know I'm not getting that right. But of of Catfish owner. And he mentions a story where he's a rookie in Kansas City and he's out there. He's out there and he's throwing, and he throws a couple pitches in and he thinks they're strikes and umpire ball. Ball. And he was like, oh, okay.

And so doesn't really say anything about it, just goes about his business finishes up, game over. He sees that home, played umpire in the tunnel. In the umpire, says he says you didn't have any problem with the way I called the balls and strikes. No, sir. He said he said so I'm the umpire and I'm gonna call it how I want to call it.

More or less. I'm paraphrasing. said, yes sir, you're the umpire. He said that's great. We're gonna get along just fine.  have a great season type of thing. Yeah. So every time that, that I'm going forward, that point forward, he got the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. And so is that maybe a little bit how you have to handle those situations as a maybe as a manager or a player?

Yeah. You have to take the heat away from the players, because I remember when we had we have, we had Bagwell. , they were young. Yeah. Louie Gonzalez. Gonzalez, yeah. Ando Har, yeah. At short. Sure. And they're coming back saying, art, they're calling Strike.

They're not strikes. And I says, Hey, don't argue with them. Eventually they'll start calling it the right way. But this is your, Initiation. To see if you can handle it right. And how you're gonna react. I know it hurts now, but it'll pay dividends down the road. Just don't show them up. And just swallow it. I said I'm, I see the films, I know they're missing them. But eventually, if you play it cool, they're gonna start giving you the benefit of the doubt. And know you're a good guy. I'll start calling it, but you gotta earn your stripes. Ah, that's it. And that's the way it is.

And it shouldn't be that way. But it is. Okay. That's it. That's interesting to know. But I guess that with what you're telling me, that makes a lot of sense with how they go about it. Yep. Very good. So at this point, you're, you finished your playing career in 1985 with St. Louis, and then you go on and you coach with the rangers from 1986 to 1988.

You manage with Astros from 19 89, 19 93. 1994 is a strike year. You scout for the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1995. And then you also coach with Colorado in 1995. And then you manage in Oakland 1996 to 2002. New York Mets back to the National League. 2003, 2004. Philadelphia 2006. As a coach in Texas as a coach again, 2007 to 2008.

So I, I want to ask what differences to you aside from the August from the designated hitter what differences if any, are there in the two leagues, the way they operate or players anything else? think more than anything for a manager, it was much easier for you to manage American League team Okay.

Than it was a National League team. Because there's double switches, with your pitcher hitting, you pull 'em when he's losing one to nothing. Then the sixth thinning, he's throwing a good game. Two guys on two outs, second and third, you let him hit. Or you try to, get ahead and use your bullpen.

But yeah, so it's, it was much more difficult in those kind of decision making situations to manage a national league team, right? American League team, you just write the lineup, number one, and you manage your pitching staff, you don't, very rarely do you pinch hit during a game, right? Cause those are your best nine hitters you're putting out there.

And maybe if you're platoon one or two guys, maybe you pinch hit there. Yeah. But other than that, there's not a whole lot decision making. It's just when to remove your pitcher and when not to, if he's stinking a place up, you go get him , he's getting him out. You let him pitch, it's much easier.

You're almost so spectator sometimes you feel like in the American League. Okay. Rather,  really managing a game. Okay. Very interesting. So let me ask you about the designated hitter. Did you I mean you, you just mentioned that it was a little bit, a bit easier to manage when you had that DH in there.

But did you like the spirit of the rule where, you know, for the longest time you had the American League yeah. You had the DA designated hitter in starting in 1973 and then, but in the National League, obviously you didn't have that, the pitcher had a bat for himself. So did you like that the pitcher had to stand in and bat for himself?

Because he's throwing, is he's a pitcher and a hitter. Yeah. I'd like the i the original idea of the designated hitter. And that was to keep aging superstars in the game. Great hitters that maybe still could hit, but couldn't field, couldn't play a de defensive position. Okay.

Weren't healthy enough to be on the field for nine innings, but you could still rake. Sure. So that's, to me, I think that was the heart of that reason for having a designated hitter in the first place to keep some of the aging stars still in the game. And I think that was great. It's certainly changed through the years and you got young kids DH and Right.

Whatever. Yeah.  in the National League. I liked the way the National League played. I thought it was an incentive for a pitcher to learn how to hit take some pride in their ability to hit and it also, if you had a pitcher that could hit, he stayed in games longer. Gave himself opportunities to win more games because a manager believed, Hey, he could still get a hit here, don't have to waste a pinch hitter.

And he's pitching well enough that he could still win this ball game. Sure. So it, I like the pitchers that really learned how to hit and became athletes. Some of 'em aren't athletes and just have a great arm. Yeah. And they can throw the ball. And but to be able to swing a bat and bunt, bunch guys, move guys around.

Yeah. Take pride in that. And in spring training, when I was managing the Astros and the Mets, I had to, pitchers take a lot of batting practice, and give 'em as best chance as they can to help the team win. Sure. Have someone up here who can't even bun, in the well, or maybe that doesn't particularly want to.

No, yeah. You see them shy away, they're afraid of the ball and Sure. But but now that everybody has a dh it's a different game. Yeah. If I was a pitcher that could hit, I'd be a little upset with it. Exactly. Except.  is what is the kid from the angels? He gets the hit anyways. Oh, O Tommy Otti.

Yeah. . He takes pride in his hitting. Oh, man. Does  so let me ask who were some guys that you played with that were, that really did take a lot of pride in their hitting and who were great hitters? Ohs. Most of the parts when I first came up, they could swing the bat a little bit.

I remember Don Drysdale was a very good hitter. He could rake guys like from back in that ages Bob Gibson could swing the bat a little bit. Sure. He could hit, so I'm going back ways, but they really did swing the bat trying to think on my clubs, if any pitchers could really hit.

Yeah. We tried to get 'em to swing the bat. Mike Scott put the bat on the ball from time to time. I know. He, yeah. Hit a sack. Fly to win a ball game for us one day, . It's important that, they take some pride in that and go up there and at least put the ball in play, if at all possible.

That's another thing that this day and age they don't realize that, it's home runners strike out or walk and putting the ball in play is a valuable weapon cuz it, you have a chance to make runners move and move runners up. Just by putting it in play. Yep. Hit a slow roller in the second with a man on.

The guy moves up the second, at least he moved up 90 feet. You didn't strike out. And he's still standing in the first base. Now base sit doesn't score him. Base sit now does score him, because you just put the ball in play. It was weak. Yeah. But it did a job. It moved a runner. Yeah. But doesn't seem to be emphasized too much these days.

No. And all those other nuances with, maybe hitting behind a runner or moving the runner over or something.  You have to be able to let the ball travel to hit the ball behind a runner if you're right in and hitter and Yeah. They yanked the ball. . Yeah. It's amazing what I see.

Yeah. No man. Kinda blows your mind a little bit. Yeah. I'll probably be rolling over my grave a few times, , whether way they can, if they continue to play it this way, . Oh again, hopefully some of those things come back around. Yeah. At some point. I don't wish think so in my lifetime.

Wishful thinking. Yeah, wishful thinking. Let me ask you so what is the, so what is a manager's role like, aside from, from the obvious, you're there to make the playoffs and win a World Series every year so once you're hired what's your first task aside from.

from selecting the staff. And then when you do select the staff what criteria did you use in selecting those coaches? I give 'em their opportunity to coach. Okay. I think if you interrupt them or step on their toes, you hire them for a reason. You believe that they know what they're teaching and that's why the interview process is important.

You ask them how, what they are gonna teach. And if you don't believe in it, you don't hire 'em. But if you believe what they're telling you and that's what they're gonna teach, and you agree with it, you hire them and let 'em go do their jobs. And you show them that you have confidence in them doing their jobs.

And what I always did, I told 'em if they ever needed help, let me know. I'll do the best I can to help out. But I'm not going to step on their toes. I'm gonna let 'em do their job. Until I see that we're not getting results. Sure. Then I might come in right and say something, but I give 'em the chance to do their job.

And I think they appreciated that. I think every coach had ever coached for me, told me that, and said, thank you for letting me work, do my job. Very good. Very good. So how important is the front office to, to a manager and let me give you the example here. So when you were with the medicine, and correct me if I'm wrong again, , you had three general managers in two seasons.

Yes. As your manager there, can you talk about how important it's to be in alignment with everybody, front office, scouts and staff and to get the kind of players in the organization that everybody wants? Yeah. I got hired by one general manager and was excited to have an opportunity to work with him because I, we were both definitely on the same page.

Mid-season he got fired,  and the next general manager, I, I was on the same page with, and then finally the third one, maybe not so much. Okay. Mainly cuz he came in at the very end of my tenure there. But ownership brought in a lot over there. Okay. With the Mets and that, that was not a good situation.

So the best thing that happened was for me to leave there Sure. For all parties involved. Sure, I understand. And but I was looking forward to rebuilding the Mets, because I went in there and they had lost over a hundred games the year before. And and I was known for, helping rebuild organizations.

And I think we were on our way, in fact, A week or two before they fired me, I had a sit down with the owner and told 'em exactly what I would do for the next season. , and that's what they did. , they fired me, but went ahead with all my advice, how to get better. And they were they, I think they made the playoffs or something.

Next year. Should have anyways. You won your, as a manager, you won your 1000th game there.  In, in New York. That was a big achievement for you as well. Yeah, it was a thrill. And I don't want a badmouth of Mets. They were a good organization. They did a lot of things really well.

. It's just, it wasn't a good fit for me, for whatever reason. But I enjoyed my stay there when I was there. Got to meet some great players. Mike Piazza played for me for a couple years and quite, quite a great player and a good human being. And Tom Glavin came over there and pitched for me, hall of Famer, so it was just nice to see the atmosphere.

The Met fans are rabid. They remind me of winter ball, right? If you don't get the job done, they're gonna let you know about it. And maybe to an extreme sometimes, but but they love their myths and it's too bad. This year it looks like they get, they're gonna be in the postseason.

And they've got a very good pitching staff. They've got a chance. Yeah. They've got a chance. We're gonna find out here pretty soon. Yep. So can you take us into the, in, into the manager's office for just a bit and describe maybe what a typical day is either, either American or nationally.

So you're, so maybe you're gonna meet with the coaching staff or talk to the starter, see how he's doing, get an update on injuries. Yeah. First of all, you, when you come in, you check with your training staff. Okay. Make sure everybody's healthy, right? Check the health status of everyone, right?

And then you go in and you check your scouting reports, right? Go over all your scouting reports, every single one. Maybe even call your advanced scout if you have a question about, a certain thing he wrote down on the reports or whatever. Okay. To clarify it and make sure you know exactly what he meant and whatever.

, which makes him feel like they're really helping and value and there's a relationship there, right? Yeah. So call him and then get together with the coaching staff, right? And tell him what, how we're gonna go about this and that and let 'em know how, we're gonna play different guys and whatever.

And then, the hitting coaches when before we take the field or whatever, hitting coaches sit down with the offense pitching coach sits down with the pitchers, you'll sit in either one of those meetings. Listen to make sure everything's being said that you once said Sure. And so that everybody's on the same page.

Exactly. And then now his, that starting pitcher, he can sit down with a pitching coach and the catchers to go over again. Exactly how you're gonna pitch to everybody in their lineup as they come up. Okay. So everybody knows exactly what you're looking for. So when the game starts, there's no questions.

And so then you roll out the balls and hope everybody listened and we're all in the right place. And you, and as a job, as a manager, you try to put everybody in a position to succeed. That's all you're trying to do. And get a, especially players, put 'em in a situation where they're, they can succeed and they're not gonna embarrass themselves.

Where they're playing from their strengths. Yes. Obviously. Yeah. When, certain hitter hits this pitcher well, and that pitcher's coming in the pitch. You may, may have him ready to pinch shit against that guy. Boom. Okay. He's going up here, he's feeling confident because he knows he owns 'em.

And that pitcher knows he owns 'em. So he's not feeling real good about himself. Yeah.  and those things, those mind games work, sure. So that's what, try to get everybody in the best matchup you've possibly can. . So what are some, are there, I know there's a lot that goes into to being a manager and maybe maybe you almost have to, I don't wanna say be a father in the clubhouse or that kind of thing, but are there some behind the scenes things in the clubhouse and, with, I know there are with the organization and a lot of things that you, that as a manager you have to handle and deal with as well.

Yeah. First of all, the clubhouse to me, I don't want the players to start walking on eggshells when the manager comes in. I want them to feel comfortable with me in the clubhouse. It's their clubhouse, right? My office is, my office got the coach's office is their office. But the clubhouse is a player's office, and they can have fun, do things, ah, goof around. Sure. Go into the training room, be comfortable with thing in there, go in for the spread where the food is. Sure. All that is all theirs. That's their domain. That's their domain. Sure. And I want them to be comfortable with it. So when I walk in, I don't want 'em to say, oh the skipper's here, yeah. , we can't keep doing what we're doing, I have fun with them. I'll go in and start goofing around with them. So I want them to feel comfortable. And when the time comes for the games to start now it's funding games are over with now.

You're professional. You go to work and you can get the job done. When it's over, we can have some fun again, especially after we win, it's time to work. It's time to work and time to win. Play time is, and if we lose, it's not the end of the world sometime, after a certain amount of time as lapsed after a game, I let 'em play little music if they want then.

Sure. But, immediately afterward, no, I don't want to hear music cuz we, we just lost. You're almost, you don't wanna look, make it look like you're celebrating. Yeah. Or having fun. Yeah. Having fun. Very good. Very good. You mentioned in your in your western in your western chapter of Pennsylvania's Sports Hall of Fame speech that you played with over 70 Major League Baseball Hall of Famers.

Yep. And so I wanted to ask, how did those talented players assist you or influence you in your career? Just with who they were as players and people? Mostly in their work ethic. Yeah. They did become superstars, without paying the price, and getting to work, like in spring training, Willie Starge, his work ethic is impeccable.

He worked on his defense, he worked on his offense. Even though he was a great hitter, he still kept working at it. Fine tuning it. You're, you can never be. With what you've done or what you've accomplished, you can always be better. That's the approach you want to keep doing it.

Sure. And my AAA manager told me that, he says, art as hard as it's been for you to get to the big leagues it's even harder to stay. And that was the best advice I ever got as far as, Yeah. Playing in the big leagues. Sure. And I always took that to heart. Yeah. Kept you going and kept you working, I would imagine.

Yep. So in that same speech you mentioned the Willie Star Walk off home, run against St. Louis. And, and he says hey, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have had this walk off home run had not walked in the fifth, I believe the fifth Philly. Yeah. And so I wanted to ask if there were, if there are a couple of other, or if there's another story, maybe about about maybe a Hall of Fame player or some, or a Hall of Fame person that you, that worked with or came in contact with in your career. I know I faced Bob Gibson twice.

He struck me out and walked me. Wow. But he was at the end, it was his last year he was pitching. I remember when I struck out, he threw me a three, two slider that Oh man. Just unhittable. Yeah. I hate to say it, but I don't even know if our good Lord could have hit it . It was that good. Oh wow. And this was his last year of pitching.

And I remember walking back to the dugout and I saw Willie laughing on the bench, , he's having a big old chuckle. And I said, what are you laughing about? He says, just think art. That's just a shadow of himself out there, . I said if that's his shadow, I didn't want anything to do with the real thing.

But Willie used to tell me, if you didn't get the Bob Gibson in the first inning, it's over. And he says, once you see the sweat dripping from his chin Yeah. The game's over. He's he's loose. He's ready to go, . But it's just to hear that about, the superstars and you know how good they were, and how recognized he was from the opposition that if you didn't get him merley forget it. Yeah. And he had a little mean streak in him evidently, absolutely. Yeah. I remember Roger Misk when I was with the Astros, he let off the game. It's a home run. One of the few he hit, I did two a year. One Sure. Hit it right down the right field line in St. Louis. He's leading off the game for us.

Okay. And he's sprinting around the paces, come across that runs down and dug out, runs up the runway and turns around. He says, is he looking? Is he looking? I don't want to get him mad at me . So he evidently was noted for knocking somebody on their butt if they didn't Yeah. He would do things properly.

Yeah. He, yeah. Bob didn't take any any junk off of anybody. No, he didn't. No, he didn't. No. That's a good story. Yeah. All right. Let me let me try and land this airplane with us with a couple more questions on this. Okay. Get us back to to other things. But, so what do you want, what would you want fans and the countless people that you interacted with over the years in baseball to, to remember about you?

That I've played the game hard. Yep. That I was a great teammate. Yep. I was loyal and I did the best job I could, wherever I was. Yep. And I enjoyed every minute of it. Yep.  and that you were an incredibly classy gentleman. I'm gonna add that too. Thank you. So you bet. It's absolutely. Is there anyone that you would that you would care to care to mention?

Do you have a, do you have a, is there a charity that we could support? The Kata Foundation Okay. In Colorado. Okay. It's k a t a, it stands Okay. For two children that had died when they were like in their late teens and maybe 20 years old for a doctor and his wife that I got to meet when I was out there in Colorado, we had a, we're actually gonna start up, start a golf tournament again.

It was in my name. Okay. And the Kata Foundation, it's to raise it for ancon in Fcon anemia. Fcon anemia. Okay. And it's a rare disease, but it's a fatal disease in the children don't live past their early twenties, but now they're starting, we've been doing it for about eight to eight to 10 years now.

And we've raised a lot of funds for it and they're starting to find some breakthroughs for it. Okay. So the research is coming through. Yes. Good. Fanconi, anemia that's what I love for them to donate if they could. Okay. And that's K a t. . K A T A K A T A. Finn, is that just a foundation?

Yes, foundation. You get it on the internet, you can see kata. So K a t A foundation. Yep. I can't tell you what a tremendous pleasure this was and what an honor it was to have you on my debut podcast here. And I have to apologize for you being my proverbial Guinea pig here.

Again everybody, our guest today was former major league player, coach and manager, art Howell. And I want to express to our audience how important it is to follow the lead of our guest today and to be a Hall of Fame person who makes a difference in the lives of others. Never quit on your dreams, no matter how long it takes.

Thank you again, art. This was a really amazing conversation, and I I very much appreciate you and your time and I hope that I did right by you today. And the honor and pleasure is all mine. Thank you, Greg. Yes, sir. I enjoyed every minute of Thank you very much. Thank you everyone for listening to the Debut Heroes and Icons podcast with your host, Greg Randolph.

Please remember to follow us on Instagram at Heroes and Icons podcast, subscribe like subs, subscribe and share us. Also, look for us on SoundCloud, as well as Captivate FM and anywhere else you get your podcast. Thank you. Thank you very much everyone, for listening. We'll see you next time and until, Goodnight.

God bless, and we are all clear. Thank you. Thank you.