Ep. 5. Tal Smith. Revered baseball executive and Houston Astros HOF Class of 2022. Part 1

Thank you for finding the Heroes and Icons podcast! Please rate, share and review the show on Apple or wherever you might be listening, and follow me on Twitter @HeroesIcons Pod. I'm your host Greg Randolph. My special guest today is longtime baseball executive and Houston Astros Hall of Famer, Class of 2022, Tal Smith.  In Part 1 of a 2-part series, we discuss Tal's early life and how he was captivated by baseball, the early days of the Houston Colt .45s, the Grand Opening of the Houston Astrodome in 1965, and his career through the Astros and the team's first ever division championship in 1980. Enjoy the show and thank you again for listening! Please follow me on Twitter @ (20) Greg Randolph (@HeroesIconsPod) / Twitter Thank you!! Photo credit: Houston Chronicle. 

Transcript

Welcome and thank you for joining us today on the Heroes and Icons podcast. I'm your host, Greg Randolph. Please find me on Instagram at Heroes and Icons Podcast and on Twitter at Heroes Icons Pod. And if you're so inclined, please rate, share, and review the show. And I thank you for doing so. We have an incredibly special guest today, and if you're a baseball fan of special, the Houston Astros, this gentleman needs no introduction.

He's a very respected executive throughout the game of baseball. With his career, having spanned the better part of six decades, with 35 seasons spent with the Houston Astros in the early to mid 1960s, he oversaw the operational and functional side of the new Ted Houston Astrodome. As Judge Roy Hofheinz's right hand man and seeing this engineering marvel through to completion.

He was the primary architect of the 1980 Houston Astros. With that season producing the team's first ever division title, who was named Major League Baseball Executive of the Year for the 1980 season by the Sporting News. After the, after the amazing 1980 season, he started his own arbitration and consulting business t Smith Enterprises, who services were utilized by nearly every Major League team from 1982 to 2018.

In 1993, he was the recipient of the Fred Hartman Award by the Houston chapter of the Baseball Writers Association of America. In 1996, he was inducted into the Cobra Academy's Athletic Hall of Fame, and in 1998 into the Texas Baseball Hall of Fame. In 2005, he received a baseball American Lifetime Achievement Award, and that year under his leadership at Houston, Astros made their first ever World series appearance.

TAs Hill, which was in play at Bennett Ma Park from 2000 to 2016, was a notch toal and to the old Paul and the old ballpark such Asway Park and Crossley Field where he got a start in baseball in. He became a special advisor to the Sugar Land skiers and the Atlantic League. His induction in the Houston Astro's Team Hall of Fame class of 2022, alongside Astro's, longtime outfield, Terry Pool was the capstone in his remarkable career.

He is also the very definition of a gentleman and the scholar, if I may say so. And without any further ado, my guest today on the Heroes and Icons podcast is, of course, tell Smith, how are you, how's your family doing? What, what keeps you busy these days? I'm fine, Greg. It's nice to visit with you and, uh, uh, you know, , when I got into retirement, I always worried about what I was gonna do to stay busy.

And, uh, I, I no longer asked that question. There's always something, always something you're going on between family and interest and so on. So, but we're, we're doing fine. Thank you. Great. And then, and then God willing, you're gonna turn 90 years young this year, is that correct? That's what they tell me.

Looking at the calendar, , that's what it looks like. What's the secret to your longevity? Oh, that's, uh, that's hard to answer. I, I, I guess I always tell my son, and, uh, and his two boys are, are two grandsons. I always, uh, urge them when they're talking about, uh, issues or problems or career or something. I, I use, uh, two, two words, uh, when you have to be patient and you gotta persevere.

Okay? And I, I think, uh, I think that's advice that I have tried to follow. I've tried to be patient, uh, with, uh, when things don't work out. Uh, if you persevere, you generally find a solution to it. Right. So, absolutely. You know, so that, uh, that carried me through, what, 54 years of, uh, baseball and, uh, probably another six or seven years since then doing various consulting work.

Sure, absolutely. So what was your, so, so lemme go back and start at the very beginning if I may. So what was your introduction to, to sports and into baseball? Uh, I have, uh, I, I was attracted to baseball just, uh, just before I was seven years old. Well, it is about the time I was seven years old. I was, I was born in September.

I can recall distinctly the 1940 World Series. Right. Uh, the Cincinnati regs and, uh, and Detroit Tigers, right? And I don't know how I came across that, whether it was radio or something, but I became captivated by that, I mean, as, as a kid, as a five or six or seven year old, you're tossing a baseball around or a football or something of that nature.

But I didn't, it, it, it, I can distinctly remember the 1940 World Series impressing me and, uh, that, that just, uh, that wetted my appetite. And it was an interest that just grew and grew. And, uh, from that time on virtually everything I. Did was, uh, focused on baseball and, uh, one that I would've, would've preferred, like most of us to make it as a player.

But you, you, you know, you, you quickly come to the realization that that takes some very special skill that, uh, that, uh, very few are blessed with. And, uh, well not, but, uh, it's, it is something I was always interested in. I, I followed other, Other sports. I followed football, uh, in, uh, Stan in basketball in the, in the early years.

And, uh, when, uh, when I was in, in high school, I went to Culver Military Academy in Indiana. And I, uh, they had a, they had a great program there that gave you the opportunity to get involved in any number of, uh, of, uh, of athletic interest at, uh, at the intermural or at the varsity level. And I, I played baseball.

I boxed, uh, I guess my most notable achievement was as a plebe, as a freshman or as a plebe as its term in military academy, right. Parlance, uh, Well, not did, uh, uh, the finals of the, of the, of the boxing program were always at, uh, at commencement, at graduation. And that was a big deal because there was a lot of competition between the various units and, and, uh, whatnot.

And as it turned out, I, I was, I was in the, in the finals and I won my bout, uh, as a, as a, as a, as a plebe as a freshman. And, uh, was quickly embraced by the upperclassmen that had been, been so severe and strict and stern on me during the military aspect of it. So, sure. Uh, you know, that, that's, that's something I remember.

And, uh,  and, uh, one up. From that point on, I was, uh, you know, I was concentrating on other ways to get involved in the game. I, you know, a certain jour, you know, radio, print media or journalism at that, that time. Uh, saying like money, you know, I was editor of the school or sports editor of the school paper and then editor and then I went to Duke and uh, I was interested in radio.

I've always had an appreciation, uh, for radio announcers, cuz those are the ones that were describing the games to me as a kid. We didn't have tv so I can recall listening to red. So, Games with Jim Britt, and then later on we moved to the Philadelphia area and the Phillies and a were both, uh, there at that, uh, time.

And Byron Sam was the principal play-by-play guy, and I was, I was always, always had a great appreciation for them. I was interested, obviously, in the accounts of the game, and I took. You know, took particular note of their style and the way they did it. So when, uh, when I was a freshman at, uh, duke, as a matter of fact, before that, at the, uh, uh, in the summer before I entered Duke, I graduated, graduated Culver in, uh, in June of 1950.

My dad at that time, uh, we, we were living in Durham, North Carolina. Right. Uh, my dad was in the retail business and, and, uh, what a directed advertising and a number of other things. And as a result of his, of, of his advertising, uh, he obviously knew, knew, uh, st radio station owners and general managers and whatnot.

And he arrange, it arranged for me to get, uh, what was, uh, just an sort of an unpaid internship. They didn't call it that in those days, but Sure. It's, I got the opportunity to hang around the station and yes, and whatnot. And that lasted for a couple of weeks. And then just through attrition, through illness or people leaving and vacations and so on.

I got an opportunity to pull a staff shift at a, uh, at an ABC network station in Durham, North Carolina when I was 16 years old. , I, I was not particularly interested in being, you know, in spinning records or anything. I didn't mind reading the news and things of that nature. But anyway, that, just, that, that prompted an interest and I sort of stayed with radio, uh, as much as I could.

When I went to, went, uh, at Duke, uh, they had had a very good, uh, campus radio station. And, uh, I, I, uh, my, after serving my apprenticeship, so to speak, I became the play-by-play broadcaster for basketball and football, uh, for the campus station. And, uh, the Stan basketball, even in those days was, was in its heyday in, uh, sure, you know, in, in the, uh, in what was under Southern Conference, North Carolina State, North Carolina, duke, were all very strong programs and a lot of interest.

And as a result of what we were doing, I got a chance then to establish sort of a small network and we fed some of the commercial stations in some of the smaller towns around that area. So again, these are things that I tried to do to promote my baseball interest. Sure. And is that, at what point did you, um, did you become interested in the, in the player personnel side of things that ultimately led you to get into baseball from that standpoint?

Well, that, you know, if you, if you, if you're interested in. Baseball. Uh, why not? Uh, you know, I was aware there was a business side to it. I mean, you, you have to buy your tickets and buy your hotdogs and and so on, but it's the players that interest you. And that was something, uh, you know, from, uh, early, early stage almost from the time that I started, started getting the sporting news at, uh, at age seven.

And from there, they're. Uh, you know, I would, uh, I would, uh, you know, and as I would study, and obviously at those days, you know, at that time, uh, baseball cards were sound prevalent. I can recall collecting those as a kid and studying everything that was, uh,  on them. But I found that that was sort of a, sort of just a very sketchy, uh, a sketchy description of a player.

And I would look to find more information in the sporting news, obviously had a number of publications, a baseball register, and the baseball guy and all these things. And I would  since I would purchase these things and, and, uh, study baseball, much like you'd studied anything you have great interest in.

And I, you know, I, I, I think I became familiar. With, uh, you know, the rosters of all the, all the teams, and I knew the players. I could, uh, you know, I could probably recite the, the, uh, the, uh, stand the rosters of almost every club . That doesn't surprise me. No, that does not surprise me. So, so you, so you, you got your, uh, another one of your stars.

A part of your start was, was working for the sporty news with JG Taylor Spank. Right. And he offered you a job as a, as an, uh, editorial assistant. Right. And so you started there too, right? Again, uh, you know, as, as I said, everything I did, uh, you know, from a standpoint of summer, summer vacations or anything, I would always try to focus, what can I do that is baseball related?

And, uh, so after my, uh, I, uh, I guess it, it was 1953, so it was after my junior year at Duke. I wrote letters, obviously to the sporting news and, uh, the baseball Blue book at that time, which was, uh, sort of a reference for everybody involved in baseball and anybody else I could think of. And, uh, well, not about, uh, about summer employment.

Right. And I can recall coming back to my dorm room at Duke, uh, during final exams, and there was a, uh, there was a notice on, on my door that I had a telegram and to report down to the message center to pick it up and so on. Obviously our technology was a lot different in those days. And yes, sir, when I, uh, stand my, you know, you know, to get a stand, to get a telegram and what my family lived in Durham, I knew they were fine and why not?

So I, I couldn't. Quite imagine what this was. I was, you know, I was, I'd sent out a number of letters, so I really thought it might be in a response to that. And I went and picked up the telegram and it was JG Taylor spank himself, uh, possibility of you making connection here. Please wire amount of money you wish Wow.

Or something. So I, from that standpoint, I've, uh, uh, stands, I left the campus, went home. I, I could walk home in 10 or 15 minutes through the woods and right and so on. Went home to use the phone and talked to, talked to, talked to my mother and father about it. And I called Mr. Spk and told him I was just interested in the opportunity and whatnot.

As I recall, he offered me $75 a week and, And I packed up and went to St. Louis and spent the summer out there. And it was a great education from a standpoint of learning more about baseball. At that time, 1953, I was not yet 20. So that, that was, uh, it was a real experience and, and, uh, part of the benefit was I got to go to a lot of the Cardinal and Brown Browns games,

Okay. Very good. So, so you got to see Stan Mutual in some of those guys. Yep. Yep. Nice. So, nice. So, so you finished up with Duke and then at that point you had a two year mil, uh, a commitment to the military, to the Air Force, right. So you, so does, was broadcasting just not something that you wanted to pursue at that time or did other things?

Uh, no, actually when I was in the Air Force, uh, why not? Uh, uh, I, I went in the Air Force in, uh, in May of 1955. Uh, did not get married until the following June. So I, I was up there the first year by myself and, um, Uh, so from a standpoint of the free time you had particularly weekends, again, I contacted people in the area I was stationed at Otis Air Force Base on Cape Cod.

Mm-hmm. , uh, if you get off Cape, uh, the nearest. Town of any consequences, new Bedford. Okay. It's about a 30, 45 minute drive, I guess, from where I was living. Mm-hmm.  and I wrote, uh, wrote the station there, contacted them about the possibility of doing some part-time work. I went over and met with them and, uh, ended up, uh, during the football season, I, I I, I did a full afternoon, uh, show over there with scores and highlights and things of that nature.

So I did keep my, did, uh, did uh, did keep my radio up and when, where I could, I can also recall, uh, during Christmas break, and I forget how this came about, but I was driving, uh, from Cape Cod back to Durham to visit my fiance at that time and, and my parents, and went through Philadelphia and obviously that's a hotbed for college basketball.

And uh, sure. And there were games going on at the Palestra and, uh, Walnut. And somehow I knew one of the announcers there, and I forget how I met some, somebody I had met through my years at Duke, I guess. Mm-hmm. , and I got an opportunity to visit with him and be sort of a color analyst for, for a game. So, you know, Sam, whatever I could do.

Right. I, I said I would keep doing. And, uh, but, uh, then, you know, spent two years in the Air Force, it becomes time to think about a career. Yep. Yep. And then you, you wrote a letter to the Cincinnati Reds and Gay Paul responded. I wrote to, uh, I wrote to all 16 major league clubs. Uh, again, I was, I was due to be discharged in, in May of 19, uh, 57.

Uh, when, uh, in, in, in my, in my Air Force years, there were a number of other young, uh, college, recent college graduates. Serving their commitment as a result of the, uh, of their ro OTC program at college and, and so on. And, uh, after the first year or year and a half, everybody starts talking about what they're gonna do when they get out, you know, start counting the days.

Sure. And, uh, well, not, and many of them were going into a family business or a, or a, or a Fortune 500 company or something like that. And they kept asking me, you know, what my plans were and I said, I wanna get a job in baseball. And I'd sort of laugh and what whatnot stands dismissed. That as being, as being, uh, you know, as, as a pipe dream.

Right. And, uh, not, but I, uh, again, I said it, uh, you know, it, it takes patience and perseverance. So, several months before I was due to get out, I wrote all 16 major league clubs and I, you know, tried to, tried to present something that would get their attention, because to me, the first thing you're trying to do is get somebody's attentions.

So there'll be a follow up. So I, I, you know, I did not go into a long dissertation about how I love the game, and I'm a fan of this and a fan of that. And, well, they hear that from everybody. I just tried to outline the few qualifications I had. Obviously I had the sporting news that was very helpful. I had a little bit of radio and a little bit of newspaper and so on and so forth.

And, uh, one, so, uh, anyway, I, uh, I, uh, I had responses from, from, from several clubs and, uh, I actually.  and, uh, I guess it was about February of that year, uh, some Baltimore Orioles invited me to come down at my own expense and they'd be happy to talk to me. And why not? Uh, so my wife and I drove down to Baltimore and, uh, one of, but I wasn't due to get out the service in May.

Uh, they, they, I think if I'd been available right then, they, uh, they had mentioned San Antonio, that was their farm club. The missions were the, sure were a Baltimore farm club and, uh, asked, you know, but when I explained I didn't get out to May that sort of, sort of, sort of removed that as a possibility.

And, uh, then I had another interview with Joe Brown, who was the general manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates. He had written back and said that, uh, that uh, he would, uh, he would be visiting one of their farm clubs and, uh, he'd be happy to meet with me and so on. So I actually went up and met him in Salem Virgin.

Uh, but, uh, the, uh, the one that, uh, you know, that obviously materialized was the Cincinnati Reds. And, uh, that was just a brief response from Gabe, Paul and, and, uh, and I, since I followed up and, uh, one of the day we got out of the service, my wife and I packed up and drove from Cape Cod to Cincinnati, and I, I had, had communicated back and forth, so, so the date was certain that it was, it was, it was like May the 20th or something in 1957.

Fortunately the Reds were out of town, so, so, so Gabe was still in the office and I, I remember sitting in there so-called waiting room for several hours, waiting to be ushered back there, and I see everybody else leave. And finally, when he's cleared up, the more important things I was asked to come back and visit with him.

and, uh, you know, it was my first time in a major league office. I'm, you know, you're sort of in awe, you know, you ask about skills. Well, at, at that point you don't have a lot. You can really, you know, obviously the sporting news. I talked a little bit about radio, a little bit of newspaper and, and so on. And he told me a story about people.

You know, you have to remember this, this is 1957, right? And, uh, uh, Stan, our, our culture and environment was a lot different in those days, and one of women did not, uh, usually travel business-wise and, and, and so on. Uh, Gabe asked me during our brief session, If I could, uh, type and I told 'em I could mm-hmm.

and, uh, well, not, I, I, I, you know, I, I had, I had taken that myself for my own benefit for term papers and so on, and I had, had actually, uh, actually taken a summer course to brush up on it, I think, when I was still in high school, just as a, as a skill that I, that I wanted. And then he asked about, about, uh, shorthand and I sort of laughed and I said, and I said, no, that wasn't part of the curriculum at Duke or at Kohler.

And, uh, wound up and he proceeded to tell me stories. He said, as it stands in baseball with all of our travel, this would be something that might separate you from the others. Well, not I, you know, and went on to explain when he goes to meetings, it would be helpful if he had somebody there that. Notes instead of just our own, our own attempts.

So anyway, that, that, that was just, just a, you know, just, just a brief reference to it. But as I said, uh, to persevere, I would've done anything to get a job in baseball. So I, I, I thanked him and went, went back and talked to my wife, and we went back to Durham. Right. And I quickly enrolled in, uh, in, in, in the Croft Business school or secretarial school.

Okay. And, uh, I, there were only a couple of, couple of males in there. Everybody else was a recent, you know, recent high school graduate that there was, uh, you know, training to be a secretary. Right. But, uh, I, I had talked to the owners of the, or the operators of the, of the school. And there was a, there was a course called Speed Writing.

Yes. Uh, which, uh, which they, uh, claimed you could master in six weeks.  and, and the claim is pretty accurate. If you really apply yourself, if you pay, if you have patience and persevere and, and, uh, really get after it, you can. So anyway, I, I, I, as I said, if this was gonna lead to a baseball job, whatever it took, right?

So, uh, even though, even though some other people looked to scan at what I was doing, Uh, why not? I, I went there and I applied myself and I'd come home in the afternoons and, uh, you know, and practice and study and so on. And I wrote Gabe that when I was enrolled, and about halfway through the course, after about three weeks, I got the owners to give me sort of a progress report and I sent that onto 'em, and I just tried to stay in touch and keep my name in front of them.

Right. Well, after I'd finished that, uh, then, uh, you know, we've, we've, we've been out of the service now for, you know, I got out in May, so this is like August or September, and people are wondering when I'm gonna get a job and when I'm gonna go to work. Well, I still didn't wanna remove baseball as a possibility.

Uh, well, my wife and I had, uh,  really enjoyed Cape Cod. I was born and raised in Massachusetts, so Right. Had special meaning. So if I was gonna do anything, I wanted to at least pick something as a stop gap that I thought I would enjoy. Uh, there's not a lot of opportunities on Cape Cod unless you build boats or repair boats or something.

But they do have a radio station on the newspaper. . So I contacted them and, uh, I had an exchange with the editor of the stance of the newspaper, uh, stands again. New Bedford comes into play because of paper. The headquarters actually published in New Bedford with a Cape Cod edition. They had a Cape Cod office and a New Bedford office and the managing editor, we talked back and forth by phone, uh, saying a couple of times, and, and, uh, and he sort of hired me conditionally.

He said, well, sounds good. Why don't you come on up, subject to a final interview here, and so on and so forth. So again, we packed up the car and went up to New Bedford and I, uh, and I parked, left my wife in the car and ran upstairs to the, to the office. And they, one thing they were concerned about was young college graduates using, using, uh, Stan, Stan New Bedford and the Cape Cod Standard Times as a stepping stone to the New York Times or Boston Globe or something.

Right. And I assured him that wasn't my intent, and it wasn't, I mean, true, truly, it was not my intent. No. He did not ask me about the Cincinnati rat . So, and I didn't feel compelled to bring that up. So, so anyway, I took a job with a newspaper and, uh, Spent, spent about two, uh, two months, uh, there. And again, I wrote Gabe and told him what I was doing and so on, so forth.

And, and why not? Uh, it stands on the cape. We were, we were living with actually temporarily, with, with, with, with, with friends, with the family. We had met when we were in the service and uh, and it was only like two or three miles from the, from the office. And I'd come home for lunch sometimes. And I came home one day and, uh, my wife Johnny told me You had a call from Gabe.

great. And so I said, oh my gosh. So I picked up the phone, call him back, and, uh, why don't we quickly negotiate? You know, he, he  said, told me he had an opening, uh, and he won, or he, uh, said, told me his salary would be 300. And I said, Gabe, that's a little bit less than what I'm making. I was making $75 a week right at, at the paper.

And obviously there's more than four weeks in a month. You got the couple of extra days. So anyway, I, I, right, that was my first negotiation. I negotiated, gave back up to three 50 a month, and I went back and gave notice to paper and they were most unhappy. I, which I can understand. And, uh, whenever we packed up and went to Cincinnati and, uh, started there, uh, I think a payroll date was something like December 1st, 1957.

Okay. Well, very good. So, so when you, when you started with the res, what, what impressions or concerns did you initially have about compiling some player personal data and how did you, how did you streamline that to organize yourself? I just, uh, tried to absorb everything I could. In those days, baseball officers were much smaller than they are today.

I, if I recall correctly, at Cincinnati, I think in, in including the, including the, uh, uh, it's down the, the, uh, if now publicist, a publicity director, and that was a one man office. Today, there's half a dozen, at least in Yep. In publicity, uh, it stands, accounting and finance, were two people. Today, there's 20.

Right. And one, so it was, it was a small office, but that, that was good because you got an opportunity to really meet everybody to know what they were doing, to absorb and so on. And, uh, as it turned out, our, uh, you know, that was, that was, uh, as I said, December, 1957. And by that time, uh, we were expecting Right.

And our first daughter was born the following march. And I waited until after Christmas to go home to tell my wife that I would be going to spring training in Laredo, Texas. Now. Now. And here we were. Is Stan in Cincinnati? A young couple right? Without much money. Uh, really didn't know anybody cuz we moved there as it stands in December and, uh, stayed in a large apartment, uh, developer complex.

Mm. And one stands, it's winter. You don't get to meet a lot of people. We have no family there or anything else, but my wife is really special. She has been so supportive and she's so strong and whatnot. So I, as I said, I wait until after Christmas cuz this is gonna be a shock. I'm not gonna be here. You're gonna be by yourself cuz I'm gonna leave for spring training.

We left an early February and drove, drove from Cincinnati to Laredo, Texas with the farm director of the person in charge of, of scouting and development At that time, bill McCaney Jr. Who was the son of the former, uh, major league manager, bill McKenney, who was a hall of Famer. But anyway, is the Bill McKenney Jr.

Of.  and our local area scout, buzz Boyle, who was a former Major League player and myself, we stand, drove to Laredo, Texas. I did not get home UN until May the first. Uh, and uh, so our daughter at that time was almost two months old. Wow. And, uh, well, and during spring training, bill McKenney, who, who, who was my boss and the director of this operation, and we had, I think 11 or 12 minor league clubs at that time and hundreds of players and, and.

So on. He became I in spring training and had ultimately had to resign. And, uh, one, they appointed Phil Sege, who had been a scout and former minor league manager. They, they, they, they appointed Phil as the interim director. And that was great. Phil. Uh, Phil and I got along well, but Phil was a field guy, right?

And, uh, there in those days, uh, the, the, the rules were a lot more complex in baseball from a standpoint of player assignments and movement and the financial aspects and everything else. And it stands to me, it was sink or swim. Somebody had to do it. I had to do it. I had to learn, I had to find a way.

Right. And it was a great opportunity. As it turned out, it was a blessing. Sure. Really, because it, it cast me in a role, whereas I said it was sink or swim. I, I  since I had to survive. And in doing so, Stan, you learn the business and, uh, , why not? And that, uh, you know, that I think opened up other opportunities for me.

Absolutely. And, and Gay Paul saw that, saw that in you. And so he, he took you with him and we'll, we'll, we'll get to a couple different stops here along the way, , but he's, he was a very key figure to you. So what, can, can you talk about his influence and what, what he meant to you from, from that standpoint?

Yeah. Gabe, you know, Gabe is, is, uh, very important in my life and in my career. He gave me the first opportunity at Cincinnati. Uh, then after three years there with, uh, with, uh, with the expansion decision, bringing Major League Baseball to Houston. Right. Uh, he invited me to come with him. That was a second tremendous opportunity.

Sure. And as it turned out, he left. We'll get into that later. I Right. That's why he left within six months. Yeah. So again, that was another sink or swim opportunity for me. And, uh, one up. But then, uh, uh, you know, saying later on, , uh, in, in 1973, right? By this time Gabe has, has joined George Steinbrenner with the Yankees, right?

And they invite me to come join the Yankees. And, uh, at that time for a number of reasons, I, I thought that was another great opportunity. Things had changed here in Houston, somewhat, uh, from a standpoint of the, uh, of the, uh, structure of the club and. And, uh, and so on. And the Yankees are magical. I mean, I've never been, never been a Yankee fan particularly.

As a matter of fact, I was probably anti Yankee as a kid. And, uh, one up. But again, you know, that, that's, uh, that's, that's sort of the hallmark. Then one up, and that's the pedestal to go to New York. And one's why I spent, you know, so again, I have to have to credit Gabe with three tremendous opportunities, very, you know, very important in my growth.

Right? And again, going back to Laredo mm-hmm. , uh, as a result of the need and somebody had to do it. And so, right. There wasn't nobody, anybody else there but me. So I, I had to do it. And Gabe saw that and I think developed an appreciation for that. And from that time forward, even though I'd only been with the company shoot by that time, N uh, five or six months.

Right. And, well, not, I, I think he viewed me differently and I, I think that was a real asset to my career. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so after you, after you got to, to Houston, so, so we're, we're still the coal 40, we're the coal 40 fives in those early years, and you were named the farm director pretty early on, about 1961.

So what, what challenges did you face in building a, a farm system from scratch? Oh, that was a great opportunity. Again, I mean, I've  since I've been fortunate from, you know, from the timing standpoint, uh, one, one to get an opportunity to be with an expansion club. Uh, you know, and it stands being the first expansion made it a little bit more difficult because it wasn't as readily accepted.

Some. Thought it was great. Other people looked at it and what they, you know, and they, you know, weren't certain as, as to whether it was gonna work or not. And, uh, well, so from that standpoint, from, uh, from what it meant in carrying out the job, it gave us an advantage from a standpoint of selling opportunity.

But at the same time, we had to convince some of the doubt. About the, about the stability and uh, you know, and as to how this was gonna work out. Cuz people say, oh, you, you know, saying you don't have any history. These other clubs, the Yankees, the Cardinals, the Dodgers have been in business for years and have done this and that, and so on and so forth.

But again, as I said, you have to, you have to sell that, you have to overcome the obstacles. And I, I, I think really it gave us a great, a great headstart. We were, I think we were able, and, and they, this was in the days prior to the, prior to the, to the, to the amateur draft. So that was even more beneficial.

We had no restrictions. From a standpoint as to how many players we could sign. Wow. It just became up to us, uh, to be able to find the talent and to convince them to sign with us instead of signing with the Yankees of the Dodgers, of the Cardinals, or these established clubs where they'd have to play behind already established players.

Sure. And not, uh, say when it came, came to Rusty Stub was a 17 year old as it stands in New Orleans. Uh, why not sign Rusty? And it's a short path to the big leagues. Right. It's signed with somebody else. I think it would've taken him a lot longer right. When we had that same opportunity with, uh, with, uh, you know, Dave Justy and Joe Morgan and Right.

Others as, as, as time went on. So from that, from that standpoint, I think we were.  able to, able, able, able to get an advantage. We also had our stumbling blocks. As I said, gay Paul left after six months. And that, and that, that, that was sort of a red flag too, where your general manager just left what's going on there and Right.

And so on. So that, that, that, that posed another set of problems. And, uh, then the ownership at that time, uh, judge Hoff, Bob Smith and Craig Culin and George Kirksey. Mm-hmm. , well, I can recall right after Gabe left. Uh, and then that was in, in April of, uh, of, uh, 1960. And we were operating out of the, uh, judge Hoff's office is over on Branch Street.

Right. And, uh, we officed upstairs and I recall somebody, uh, came to get me and said, they wa, they, uh, said Judge Hoffins and others wanted to see me downstairs. Mm-hmm. . And so I, I went in to see them and it was all, all the ownership and they confided in me that they had, uh, had reached, uh, an agreement with Paul Richards to come as general manager, but it would not be until after the 1960.

One season. Right. And, uh, they, you know, they expected me to treat this in confidence as I did mm-hmm.  and I became the, then the link between the Colt 45 staff and Paul Richards and whatnot. And I can recall, you know, I think I've told the story we were. After the season started, we still had the Houston buffs to operate right.

As a, as a AAA club. And we, so I officed over at Buff Stadium and the, uh, in those days you had switchboard operators and to, to process the, the phone calls. And I can remember the switchboard operator o would, would, would ring back and says, tally, you've got a call from somebody that identifies himself as Blackie.

And I'm sure she thought it was my bookie or something. . I, I don't have a bookie, but I don't know, I, I don't know what she thought was the name. Blackie. Well, that, that was the code name for Richards. And he would, he, he was at that, that time. He was still managing the Baltimore Orioles. And he would call and give me, Scouting information that he had, that he had obtained from, uh, from Baltimore Scouts and Baltimore files and so on and so forth, and, uh, wanted us to follow up and enact in that.

I, I didn't always feel comfortable with that, but again, I didn't understand, understand Sure. And so on. And then, uh, it stands in st. Mid-season, some, sometime in July or August. I was to go up to Chicago. The Orioles were playing the White Sox, a split double. And, uh, and I was to meet Richards up, up there, and when we arranged, uh, he, I forgot, I forget the hotels, but the Orioles were staying at one hotel and I checked into a hotel across the street and all, all the, all all this kind of intrigue and Subter fusion and so on went over.

I was to meet, to knock on his door at six or six 30 in the morning and whatnot. And I did. And, uh, Eddie, uh, Eddie Robinson was, was there, I had, had not known Eddie, but he, he subsequently came with Paul as, as assistant general manager. And, but anyway, so, uh, so we went out and. Went out and watched a, watched the double header, had dinner in, in between games with Paul and, and the coaches and so on, most of whom were coming to Houston.

Uh, so when Paul came, he brought, we, as a matter of fact, we used to, used to, used to used to, uh, kid and call it Paul and his disciples, cuz he brought, he brought Lumen Harris and he brought Lou Fitzgerald, he brought Eddie Robinson, Clint Courtney, a whole, whole bunch. Yeah. He must have brought 10, 12, 13 people and all, and one, so that made it difficult because it stands initially, Paul had asked the Houston ownership for everybody's resignation for all, all the, all the, all the, uh, all the, all the, all the staff there prior to his arrival that Paul.

He won resignation, so then he could pick and choose if he wanted to retain everybody. It's fortunately, the ownership would not agree to that. So, uh, but over, over a period of time, there's, uh, you know, there's, uh, certain thinning out of the ranks, and as I said, Paul inherited my services, uh, and brought in his own team, and that, that made for a difficult arrangement.

I can, I, I can understand that . I can certainly understand that. But he, so what, um, so as far as, as far as the scouting goes, so what, what type of player were, were you looking for and what, what elements had to be present for you to, to sign somebody? We weren't particularly choosy on those days. I mean, you wanted, you wanted somebody that you felt that possessed talent, but it's not like we're concentrating on, uh, on short stops or right-handed hitting outfielders or any of that.

I mean, we, we, we, we, we, we were signing anybody that. Display that in our scout's opinion, had some, some tool or some, some chance. And, uh, and, uh, for the MO most, you know, as, as it turned out from the inception of the, of the Colt 40 fives in, uh, in, in 1961, so to speak. Mm-hmm. , uh, um, up through 1973 when I left for the Yankees, uh, the, uh, the organization signed or developed more major league players than any other.

Team during that time. Right now, some of that was because of the opportunity we had and some of it was because of good scouting. Sure. Uh, we were able to, able to draft, uh, uh, draft Jimmy, when I say draft in the professional draft mm-hmm. , they sent Jimmy Wynn had signed with the Reds. I knew Jimmy from my days with the Reds when had worked out high school kids at the, at the ballpark.

And that was one of my responsibilities. And I remembered Pete. Uh, Rob, I, I, I mean I, I remember Jimmy Wyn from those days, Pete Rose also, but, uh, sure. And, uh, and as we were able to draft him, we drafted Nate Colbert, who went on to be a very fine, major league player with the, with the San Diego Padres and mm-hmm.

and, uh, one, and I, uh, one we had a great deal of success and, uh, I saw a lot of that is due to the, due to the scouting staff, we were able to assemble. And again, much like with players, with scouts, you were able to offer opportunity and uh, you know, obviously it's sort of a, sort of a trial and error. You hire people and you hope they work out, and most of them do, and why not?

But, uh, in the, in the staff that, uh, that we subsequently had, uh, I'm sort of jumping ahead, but, uh, uh, but, uh, three of them became Major League General Managers, pat Gillick, who's in the Hall of Fame. Uh, Jim Wilson and Jim Baumer. Three of them became general managers. Uh, two of the scouts ultimately became major league field managers.

Carl Keel and Joe Frazier. Uh, many others went on to, to succeed, so we had a strong scouting. Uh, that worked hard, had good judgment. We were aggressive. We signed as many as we, as we as, as, as we could. Obviously, the, obviously the money would have a, would, we would've a bearing. But in those days, except bonuses were not huge.

I mean, we signed, we signed money players for a thousand dollars or $5,000. A John Bateman story was, was interesting. We did saying we conducted tryout camps and we had a tryout camp.  in, uh, Texas City and Bateman, uh, was aware of it. And he came down and the scouts saw enough there, and we, uh, reimbursed him for his travel expenses, $77.

And that was what Bateman got to sign. And he became a big league. Right. Big league player. Yeah. And, uh, play and played for a number of years with some success. Sure. And, uh, when, so those, those are the kind of stories that we, uh, that, uh, that we, that, that we, that we had. Very good. Very good. So, so, so in, so in 1963, gay Paul leaves, leaves the Astros, he's gonna go to Cleveland, he wants to take you with him, and you're, you're saying you're goodbyes, you're gonna, you're gonna go with him.

It is, it, is that correct? No, that's, uh, that, uh, uh, there's, there's a couple of different things. Gabe. Gabe. Uh, Gabe was here for about six months. I can recall, as I said, we were operate, we were operating the buffs I was offering at, uh, Santa Buff Stadium. And Gabe had gone to, uh, to Florida for spring training to, to, you know, to see players, contacts and so on.

And I, and I recall after, after, after our game one night getting ready to leave, and Gabe, Gabe called and, you know, as he, as he did daily. And, and so I filled him in on the, on, on the, on the game and what had happened and so on. He said, well, actually I had something else I wanted to talk about. He said, can you get the rest of the guys well?

But the rest of the guys were three or four others, uh, that, uh, that were involved. Some of them had come from Cincinnati and there as a rule af after the game, uh, you know, you, you're back in the office, wrap things up and. And, and the others had, had left while I was talking to Gabe, but I knew where they were gonna stop for, uh, for a beer or, or, or a burger or something.

And I was able to call and get them to come back. And then Gabe called and spoke to all of us and explained that he was, you know, he was leaving. And I, I, I was aware of. Of the problems cuz I'd have lunch with Gabe almost every day. And after a while, I, I, I, I could sense the problems and, uh, and I can recall lunch one day and he reaches in his, in his inside pocket of his, of his coat and, uh, pulls out a sheath of papers.

And it was a, it was a copy of certain portions of his contract and he wanted me to read it. And it had to do with, uh, standard responsibility and.  and, uh, as it was written, and you know, Gabe, you know, Gabe was very experienced and I, I, you know, and I, I think he, he negotiated his contract well to where he thought he had, had, had full autonomy.

And as it turned out, obviously, ha finance is a different kind of personality. And Gabe had, Gabe had gone to spring training and he comes back, uh, and, and, uh, see and sees and, uh, sees the ballpark Buff Stadium and there's streamers all over. And, and Hine had painted it. And Ga you know, Gabe thought that was wasteful.

He, you know, he, he didn't think that made any sense. We're only gonna be here a year, that minor league baseball's not necessary, and so on and so forth. So, so Ian Hoffins clashed in a. Right number of things. And uh, you know, as I said, Gabe would have me read his contract, and I, I could, I could sense that he was really un really unhappy at Cincinnati.

He had had complete control. The owner there was Powell Crosley Jr. And Mr. Crosley at that time had retired, spent all of his time at, uh, on his island off the coast of South Carolina and one that would come up, uh, twice a year, once for the Christmas luncheon, right? And another time 1, 1, 1, uh, one visit during, during the season, and one so , uh, from that standpoint, Gabe did, did have full authority.

He had as much authority as any general managers in the game. Things weren't working out that way in Houston. So I was aware he was gonna leave and obviously he did. Uh, uh, uh, Gabe did ask us when, when I assembled the group, and he talked to us by phone and said he did ask us, uh, if we would all agree not to bail out or leave.

Uh, for 60 days. He, you know, but he, he was concerned, and I suspect this was part of his, of his settlement agreement with, with Haws and Smith and others, was concerned, again, an expansion franchise with all the doubters worrying about stability and the general managers leaving. You don't want to, you don't, you know, St.

Gabe didn't want to be responsible for initially pulling all the staff out either. So anyway, we, we all had to abide by that. I remember some of the others, uh, would, would keep, uh, keep charts in their office much like you do in the service or in school. How many days you got left and they had a 60 day thing crossing them up.

I didn't feel that way. I, I, you know, I, I, I, uh, uh, again, uh, had responsibility, right? Uh, this is before I knew Richards was coming, right? And, uh, so from that standpoint, I wasn't concerned about uplifting the family again and going and so on. And I appreciate what Gabe was doing. But then as it turned out, later on,  after Richardson.

And I, uh, when, when I, uh, when, when he dismissed me following spring training in 1963 and, uh, Walnut and Gabe, uh, like, uh, I guess I called Gabe, or he was aware of it. And that's when he, uh, offered me the chance to come to sense or, uh, to Cleveland at that, at, at that time. And actually spelled out the role and had, uh, had Hoot Evers, who was his chief, uh, player personnel guy.

I, I had known hoot and he had hoot and I talk and I thought that was all gonna work out okay. And, uh, uh, uh, again, uh, this is, uh, just before we're expecting our second child, Randy, our son Randy, is born in June. This is, this is late April. Right. Uh, so any, anyway, I was saying my goodbyes in the office as you, uh, as you referred to and mm-hmm.

and, uh, Well, I, and Judge Hoffmans, who officed in, uh, at, at, at the Colt Stadium office. And as, uh, he, uh, he, he, uh, he, he would generally have his door open and, and he, he, uh, uh, he heard me and asked me to come in and, uh, and he said, you know, and he was, he was apologetic, and he said, tell, I'm really sorry. He said, I, I can't do anything about this.

We're in the, we're in the infancy here. I. You know, I, I, uh, you know, I can't do anything about Richards. I need him now. Again, by that time I sensed that Hine's had some issues also with Richards from a standpoint of some of the ethics and right, and so on. But again, from a practical standpoint, this wasn't the time to do anything right.

And, uh, why not? So that's what led Hoffins, uh, to say, you know, he said, I really like this. And there you was very complimentary. Mm-hmm. . And that's when he asked me to consider staying on as, uh, his assistant and undertaking the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the construction of the Astrodome project. Right. So again, that was.

Again, special opportunity and one up, but again, one that, uh, you know, it's a kind of sink or swim. I had no training as an architect or an engineer. And, well, not, not that you really needed to, but you had to have an understanding. And so again, you just become, you know, you, you just have, have, have to sort of immerse yourself much like I did with speed writing, right.

Or like I did in Laredo and spring training where you had to learn how to do all of this even though you had no experience. So I, I just applied the same thing to the, uh, uh, to the Astrodome project. And again, that was a real, you know, since I've been fortunate with opportunities, right? That was another one that was a real blessing.

There's only one person that got to do that in the whole world, and that was me. And that it was, it, it was great. It was magical and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I mean, it was, it, it was, it was time consuming. Mm-hmm. , it was a task. Sometimes I was, you know, I was, You know, since I, I was uncertain as to, as to certain things and I had to, had to find a way to, you know, had to find a way to figure it out.

But again, I, I, again, I have to thank fins for the opportunity. Sure. And not, and that, that, that, that, that, uh, I, I thought that, I thought that went a thought that went a long way, . Well, absolutely. It, it did. And you were, you were very organized and you were able to, to adjust on the fly and you, you, you did a lot of things behind the scenes at the Astrodome in that construction period.

Mainly one of those was, was being in on the, on the, um, on the design, the, or the, with streamlining some of the design and the construction Yeah. Of the famous Astrodome scoreboard. Right, right. Uh, of the, you know, the two, you know, two projects that I, that, uh, are most memorable to me mm-hmm. , uh, in the Astrodome are the scoreboard and, uh, AstroTurf obviously.

Right. Which was, you know, which became a big issue. Uh, one, one of the scoreboard was a fascinating, uh, project. And again, I, I, I, I  as you bring up these things that, you know, even though it's going back, going back 50 years or, or so, it brings things to, it brings things to mind and, uh, Oh, one of the scoreboard was not part of the basic contract for the dome.

Right. That was that, that that was something that club was gonna have to provide. And, uh, one, so I, I can recall when we, uh, when we first met, uh, as it stands with the, you know, with scoreboard, uh, people that were interested in the stand, providing the scoreboard and interested in the contract, and we had a number of presentations and they.

they were, uh, they were, you know, they were, uh, they were nice, uh, sort of, uh, sort of state of the present art of scoreboards, you know, the, you know, the equivalent of the, of, of the best that were then in operation. And, uh, but, uh, I, I, since again with Hine's vision, right? And when, when he quickly said that, that's, that's nice.

But that's, What they, that's not what the Astrodome is going to be. And, uh, so they, you know, they were all challenged to come up with something better and Fair Play Scoreboard out of Des Moines, Iowa. One that had a, had a couple of real creative, uh, people, Jack Foster and Olan Williams. And they, they were the ones, uh, that uh, that really followed up a, again, they persevered and, and, uh, won.

And, and, and, uh, came down with another presentation that was sort of the, uh, you know, sort of the early stages of what became the exploding scoreboard. Right. And, uh, one, so we worked with that. Concept. I made several trips up to Des Moines and whatnot, and they were very talented people, and they were very responsive to suggestions from  or anything that I might offer.

And mm-hmm. , I think that became one of, one of the most memorable features of the, uh, as it stance of the, you know, the Amsterdam, right? It was, it, it, uh, it was magical. It stands in itself for people to walk into theater, like seating and air conditioning and all the, all the bright colors and so on. But the one thing that most of them talked about as they were leaving was the scoreboard, right?

And one, so again, that Hine's vision and the, uh, and the uh, uh, uh, and the, uh, capability and the, and the, and the production by Fair Place scoreboard to make it happen, right? So, so that was, you know, that. That, that was great. The other, the other, other main, main, uh, issues that, uh, that I spent a lot of time on was, uh, what you've got samples of Yes.

Of, of, of, of here. Looks like green grass to me. . Yes. This is, this is the, this is the original prototype here. This is the one that was, that was used if I, if I'm correct, in the, in the early stages of, from 1966 for the first exhibition. Right, right. So there's, there's this one, and then this one is the one that was used from, uh, the gentleman purchased this and wrote a note on the back, on his trip to the Astrodome.

Right? This is, this is the one that was used that was used from 1966 to 1978. Okay. So that's the second one. This is a later version from the user, or nineties. Right. So, but they're very, uh, it's, so how is, how is this, how is this made? How is this, how did Monsanto actually make this? I don't know that I'm qualified to really explain.

That. I mean, when I, when I, when I first saw, when I first saw the, a sample or first saw the product, it was already made. So that's all I cared about . And, uh, why not? Again, uh, you know, we  and we had quickly discovered during the, during the initial season, 1965, after the skylight issue, uh, surfaced. And again, I could talk at great lengths about, about that.

I mean, what I, I think what people have to remember about the Astrodome is it was the first, there was no right air conditioned enclosed. Stadium baseball never been played indoors. Right. Uh, the skylights wanted, there wasn't any place to go look at what somebody else had done, cuz nobody else had done it.

Right. Uh, uh, saying he didn't have any laboratory to look right. You know, I mean, there were certain, certain tests that the engineers stance conducted and wind tunnels and things of that nature and the, and the, and the skylights. But I think, you know, I think the professionals, the, the architects and the engineers, I, you know, I think, I think, you know, I think they always had questions about how is this really gonna work out?

We think it's gonna be this. But you don't know for sure. Well, when the, you know, when the skylights, when we had the clear problem, you had to quickly solve that. And we, you know, and there was almost a panic. Right. Established some of the people and they quickly painted it. I don't, I don't know if there'd been another solution or not, but when you painted it, and they, and they actually actually painted it twice, I think on the, on the.

On, on the segment behind home plate. Mm-hmm. , that obviously reduced the light in the stadium and the grass didn't survive. Right. What, you know, I, you know, I don't know. And they, you know, we had very talented agronomists from Texas a and m and a number, number of very. Very, very skilled, capable people. I still don't know about the crash issue, whether people were absolutely convinced it was going to work without question or not, but, right.

Anyway, once it became an issue, we had to do something. And I remember Hine's coming to me. He says, T we can't live with this. You gotta do something. You do do whatever you have to do. And when I saw for, for some time, I, I'd get all kinds of, you know, it became a national, it became a, became a national story, certainly.

Sure. And, uh, I'd get all kinds of calls and mail and samples and one not of, uh, of, uh, various, you know, of, of, of paint sprays and chemicals and so on. And, uh, you know, but, uh, , there wasn't anything that looked like a, like I was gonna solve it. We had already painted the grass. We knew, so we knew, so we knew how to do that.

Saying you end up with green baseballs and, uh, Right. Well, not, and, but I, it stands out. I, I got a call one one day from Phil, Phil Thibert, who was the athletic director at Brown University in Rhode Island. Right. And, uh, he was aware of the issue and he explained that, uh, he was, uh, he, that he was one of several athletic directors on a, on a committee, uh, that had a Ford Foundation grant to study, uh, alternatives for inner city playgrounds where there was a lot of activity and obviously the grass wouldn't survive for soccer or whatever, or, or, or kickball or whatever else kids were doing.

And trying to find some, some, some solution for that. And they had come up with a, uh, with a sample of test installation at a private school in Providence, Rhode Island. The Moses Brown School, which was not associated with the university, just, just bore the same name. And so one of the architects, Jim Mueller and I flew up to, uh,  up to Providence is, I think this was November of, of 1965.

Okay. And, uh, and, uh, she said, I met the athletic director. Met, met, met Phil Thibert, went over to the private school and they had, they had a gymnasium there. You know, they sent complete gymnasium with her play basketball and, and other things. And they had, they had, they had a complete installation of this, uh, grass like product, which we, we subsequently termed AstroTurf.

At that time it was un unnamed. It was, had a serial number of, product number such and such . Right. And, uh, when, and anyway, we, uh, you know, we, we walked on it and jogged on it and bounced baseballs off it and footballs and, and so on. And I was really impressed with it. And so was Jim. And. And, uh, one came back and reported that to Hz, and one thing led to another, and that's what became AstroTurf.

Oh, very good. Well, so, so what was the, what was the reaction of, of, of some of the players like Bob Asper and there were some players from the University of Houston Football that, that tested out and the fans, what was, what was their reaction to it? Our player reaction was probably better than what you would expect, because in the first place, uh, they'd never played indoor baseball before, but they learned how to do that and  and that , you know, you know, so they accepted that.

And I just think they had confidence in half eyes, frankly. I mean, he, he, you know, every, everything he, every, everything he said or he boasted about pretty much came, came, uh, came, came true. Right. Uh, so when we, when, you know, and they were obviously aware of the, you know, of the, of, of the glare issue we had to solve that.

Right. So that they lived with, that they were aware of, of, of the grass was dead. They were playing pretty much on dirt. They were aware of that. They were anxious to have a solution. And again, I thought, you know, I, I, I, I, you know, I think in that day and age, probably it met with greater acceptance of what it might today.

I don't think players were as challenging in, in, uh, stands in those days. They were more inclined to accept, uh, what, what, what ownership, uh, might, you know, might say, uh, we obviously had, had, had players, uh, you know, To take ground balls off it. And we brought the u University of Houston football players out and so on.

And I, I think for the most part, uh, I, I, I, I think the players accepted it well. Some were concerned, obviously, particularly infielders about, you know, about the spin of the ball and how it was gonna come off and, and, uh, well not then. There were certain modifications and variations. Uh, made in, uh, walnut in one of the installations.

They, they had the, they actually had the seams. If they reversed the, if they reversed the lay of the, of, of the carpet, of the grass and turn the seams around, it, it, so, so turn it this way. The ball's gonna take a different sort. Right. And then, you know, so that, that made, that made, that made the ball truer.

And they were happy with that. Uh, they, you know, as time went on, they complained obviously about. About the hardness of the surface and, and, uh, so on. And that, that became sort of a universal concern, but it was actually better in the Astrodome because our carpet was installed over dirt, whereas other installations, they were putting it over concrete.

Well, to some degree dirt's a little bit softer, so. Excellent. So I, that's a, that was a, an amazing innovation and that's, that's definitely put your mark on a, on a legacy for, for, for sports and indoor statements. Yeah. You know, you know, uh, you know, again, as I said, I've, I've been very, very fortunate to get involved with things that we're sort of, uh, you know, sort of.

sort of a, uh, earmarks for, you know, for, you know, for what had happened, AstroTurf being won the score, the scoreboard to some degree was another, because that be, that became sort of the forerunner of the, all the magical displays we have today. Right. You know? Excellent, excellent. Well, very good. Well, let me, let me fast forward that a little bit here to some, to some other things in the interest of mind.

Sure. So, so let's go to December of, um, of 1971. I'm gonna come back to something else. So the, so the j the Joe Morgan trade, as I understand it really incensed you. Yes, it did At very much . Was it, what was it? Was it his, his Hall of fame talent aside, what, what else was it about the trade that really drew, your Honor, at that time,

well, sort of a disregard for the young talent. Right. Was one, uh, sort of, uh, sort of turning your back on the evaluations, uh, from staff. Okay. Because cuz this, this was pretty much a determination made by Spec Richardson, the general manager. Right. Uh, to some degree I. I, I thought there might be some, some, uh, some bias in it.

Okay. And I, uh, I didn't like that. I just didn't think they, I, I, I thought it was a ho horrible mistake. They didn't recognize the talent. They didn't, you know, you know, Joe, you know, Joe was, you know, Joe was, uh, still in his early years in getting established and there was a lot more there. I, I, I mean, I, I, I, I, uh, I, I shouldn't have said it, but I made the comment to Joe Hying, who was the beat writer for the Houston Post at that time.

And the, the, the trade took place in San Diego at the, at stands at the winter meetings. And, you know, there's a lot of activity. And, and I, and, uh, you know, I was with our scouts and minor league managers and people, and. And, uh, one h uh, heard about the trade. I guess we all started to go up to the press conference and that's why I ran into Job.

And I, I, I had, you know, I knew Joe well and felt comfortable with him, and he, he asked what, asked what I thought. I think he knew what I thought, you know, and I, I told, I was just incensed by it. And I, and I said, it just doesn't make any sense, Morgan, and my judgment's gonna be an mvp.  and I, I made that comment and I thank Joe, printed it and turned out Morgan was back to back MVPs.

Right. And you know, Stan, it just wasn't Morgan, it was everybody, every, everybody else in that stands in that deal. I mean even, even Stan Geronimo and Arm Brister and, and uh, Billingham, they just didn't have a, any appreciation. And the other thing was that, that, that, that we got Lee May, back in the trade, we got Lee May, Jimmy Stewart and Tommy Helms and, uh, getting Lee May and he, he was a fine major league player, but that, that that shut the door on Mayberry.

And I thought and on and I thought Mayberry was gonna be a great, you know, he was again, one of a number one draft choice. Right. Somebody we took a lot of pride in and, and, and, and to some degree send those involved. Farm directors or player personnel, directors and scouts and so on are biased in favor of the talent they bring in.

I understand that sometimes we oversell it. Sure. But I don't think we were overselling Morgan or Mayberry and, uh, one, so, I mean, I went up to, went up to spec even before he made. Even, even before he made the announcement at the press conference. And I, and I said, well, you know, you might as well dump Mayberry now.

Right. And he subsequently did to Kansas City. And I, and I, I, you know, I, I, you know, I just thought they were terrible, terrible things for the franchise. And that was sort of the, sort of the deterioration of the, uh, of the franchise and to some degree, uh, actually put Hoffins in a bad spot because attendance fell off, interest fell off.

The club didn't perform very well. Uh, uh, that was, uh, that was, uh, after Hoffins had bought out, Bob Smith and Hoffins had opened the amusement. And all this. And, uh, and he had a cash crunch. He, I mean he, he, he had financial difficulties and interest rates were very high, and he was paying four points over prime.

I remember that. And I think Prime got up very big. It was in the teens. And, uh, when I, to some degree, I think that, I don't know, I think that, I think that affected his health and his wellbeing and certainly his, his, his financial status. And some of that I think could have been avoided if we hadn't made such, in my judgment such, uh, Mistakes that really hurt the performance of the club.

If the club had performed better, more fans would've come. You sold more hotdogs, so on and so forth. And I think the, I think the outlook, the prospect would've been much better. Well, but you had, I mean, but it was, it was building at that time. I mean, you, there was, there was so much talent there. You had, you had, uh, you, you had Jim Wind, you've hads, you had, Morgan had j o Richard.

Yep. Darker. Darker. Alright. Darker obviously. So, I mean, so if that continues to build, then maybe we're talking about the Astros being the, being the big orange machine, not the big red machine. Right. . So, yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I, you know, I, since I, I, I, I thought those two trades were sort of the downfall of the stands of the franchise, and I thought it, I, I thought it did  a lot of, a lot of harm.

I, I, I've raid Then the team went to, you, you went to New York in 73, and then a couple years after that, I think in 75 or so, the team went to the receivership Yeah. About that time. And then you came. So, so let me ask, let me, sorry, I might, I'm, I'm jumping around, but I, I, I do want to ask you about this before it gets too far away from me.

So, so in the 1969 season, Astros had a picture by the name of Jim Bouton, who was, who wrote the controversial vote, of course. All four. And that was released in early 19 seven. So what was the team's position on him authoring a book and then, and then after the book was re was released, what challenges did the team have at that moment?

I don't know that it was as, as disruptive locally. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. For, for, for our club. As, as it was, as it was throughout other circles in baseball. The commissioner I know was very upset about it. Right. And when I, cuz he thought he thought Bouton was, was, was, uh, was telling tales that were somewhat unsavory and put baseball in a bad light and right.

And so on. It, uh, it had already been done and I don't really recall any, any, any, uh, Any very strong reaction here among our other players. I mean, what happened in the clubhouse? A lot of stuff goes on, you're not privy to. So I don't know what may, I don't know what may have been said privately, but I, I, I don't recall that being much of an issue really.

Okay. Okay. So, so let me, let me jump back, back across then to, to 1973. So, Joe, Paul, once again, he takes you to the Yankees and in 1974 you begin to work in the arbitration field and, and working with the Yankees and utilizing computer scout, computerized scout reports. So, um, with, with those things, you know, then the rules of the goal at that, at that time and that era with, with the designated hitter and with, uh, the, the same order being written in, in, in 1974, it's one of the things, how did that, how did those things change kind of what, what you were doing in personnel?

Well, that, that, uh, here as we look back on it, that was probably, uh, the very early stages of, uh, of the analytics that we deal with today and. Uh, why not? I, uh, you know, I, uh, I, I had always al always, uh, paid attention to the stats and so on. Uh, I, uh, I, I, I still relied on, on scouts, judgments, scouts, evaluations, but the stats to me would sometimes, Posed a question that would cause you to go back and reexamine something.

Okay. And why not? Uh, one, as an example, here's what the numbers say. You'd go back to the scout and, and, and, uh, and point that out and say, why do you think this happens? You know, one, that, that would just cause people to examine things, uh, further. And, uh, you know, as, as, as an example, much, much, much of, uh, of, uh, money ball is based upon, uh, stands on, on base average.

That's something that we had stressed in our minor league system for, for years. When I, and I, I, I've, I've, I've got documentation of, of, uh, some of the reports that, uh, that, that we had issued stressing on base percentage and so on. I never made a lot of noise about it, and it was a hard sell to some people.

I would use it internally, it would help me make decisions. It was hard to get general managers and field managers. I don't think Harry Walker and Spec Richardson would pay any attention to any of this. They, they didn't, you know, they didn't care. And I understood, understood that, but I just thought it helped you make better decisions and, you know, from that standpoint, you know, of of, of, of all the things, I mean, of AstroTurf and the scoreboard and so on, in a sense, I also take a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of satisfaction in what we did scouting wise by being, by being the first club to, to, uh, you know, stent the computerized scouting reports so that you could, you could sort inform.

I thought that helped. Mm-hmm. , we were the, we were also the first club in, as Stan, you know, in my early days, uh, Stan Clubs would evaluate scouts only on present ability. Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Any high school kid is not gonna be, it is not gonna be a major league hitter today. What you're concerned about is he is his.

what's it gonna be down the road? So we, we sort of changed the focus. Oh, okay, fine. Evaluate, stand the present, but more importantly, project what the future is. So we, we, we started start, we sort of started that, uh, we started combine scouting, uh, which again, I thought just, uh, it just made more sense instead of every, instead of, instead of every major league club doubling up and seeing the same game in the early stages, particularly after the advent of the draft, where you'd have to have multiple, multiple opinions on players, wouldn't, wouldn't it make more sense to spread your resources and not, and, and not duplicate what the Texas Rangers are doing?

Matter of fact, how Keller was the, uh, farm director of the health of. Texas Rangers and a good friend of mine, and Hal and I got together and established a combine. Some of the scouts sort of objected initially, but it gave us the ability to cover more area, see more players, at least at the first level.

Then when it comes to final judgment, fine, you use your own people, you don't share that information. Uh, You know, so those, those, those are kind of some of the things we, we, uh, we did, uh, Sam, we instituted, uh, in, in professional scouting, uh, what I call organizational scouting. It used to be that, uh, that the, uh, scouts during the summer when they're doing their pro coverage, they would be assigned on a geographic basis.

What, whatever, whatever required, the less travel, you know, so you'd, you'd concentrate on one league or clubs in a certain area. To me, Stan, there was a gap. Would get a report from somebody today on a player. And somebody else would see him the next year that had no idea what he had been. So I thought it made more sense to have more continuity and to have sort of a specialist in an organization that knew almost as much about the organization he was covering as the people in it.

You get that by concentrating your covers. So those are the kind of things scouting wise that we did where we, you know, where we, where, you know, we tried to separate and get a, get a, get an advantage on, on others. And that certainly maximized your efficiency and maximized your coverage, I would imagine, sir.

So, so you also had the chance in your career to work for, as we mentioned in 1975, right? You guys put some key pieces together for those teams and you get to work with, uh, with George Steiner as well. What, what was that whole experience like for you? I really enjoyed it. People, people people, uh, people are sort of startled when I say, when I talk about, about George.

George. George, George could be difficult, but he knew baseball. Right. Uh, I, I, since I worked for two other owners, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but John McMullen and Drayton McLane, when they bought the club, they knew virtually nothing about baseball. They had seen very little of it. They didn't understand the terminology, they didn't understand, didn't understand why a starting pitcher have you used good, couldn't pitch every day.

I mean, I mean, I mean things, things, things of that nature. At least with George, he understood the game. Uh, he, he was bombastic, he was volatile. Uh, he was, uh, he, uh, he, he was hard on his family. He was hard on his friends. He was hard on his employees, but he really didn't mean it as much as it seemed if you, in the final analysis, if you needed.

If you needed help, even if he had fired you a year ago and if you were down and out or you had an illness or in the family or something like that, George would be one that would come to your aid without any public, right, any public recognition of it. Uh, you know, he, uh, he would, uh, he would challenge, he would test people.

And if you didn't have the fortitude for that, you probably didn't prevail or you didn't succeed, you didn't get along. Uh, cuz he, uh, if, if, if he could, if he could push you over, he would. Uh, but on the other hand, if you, uh, if, if you were forthright and, and you had convictions that you can support, And you persevered.

Uh, you could generally work it out. And George and I had had some shouting matches. Sure. You know, but it'd be all over and it'd pat you on the bag. He didn't mean mean, mean anything by it. It was, you know, it was, it was a friendly, it was a friendly disagreement, friendly argument. Uh, I, I, I, I, I have a certain fondness for, uh, San for George.

I recognize how abusive he could be, and that really bothered me. I didn't like that. I wish he hadn't been Right. But from my personal standpoint, and granted it was only a couple of years. . Uh, I did, I did. Uh, I did not encounter that well. He, it sounds to me like just in, in talking to you that he really striped for excellence and that he was a very passionate man about what he was doing.

Is that, is that accurate? Oh, oh, absolutely. He, he was, he was very passionate. Very passionate, and he had his own convictions. Right. And sometimes you ha you were challenged to overturn those ab Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so, so your time, your time there is again, you know, um, you go, come back, Toro in 1975.

This time you're manager, you, you full, full control things. So you probably burden with you from the Yankees and you, uh, so, so what, what challenges, what challenges of the organization did you have at that time when you, when you came back in building that 1982? Uh, I, again, I think I was fortunate. I came back basically under the auspices of the credit companies of, uh, Ford Motor Credit and GE Credit.

And, uh, they, uh, they had, uh, they had taken over control because of half's default on the, on the loans. And that was a structure or an environment that, to me, in all my years in baseball, wa was for me the best operating environment. Uh, I, uh, cuz it was conducted on a business like basis if, well not, uh,  since I had a budget, uh, you know, that I obviously had input and negotiated, but we had a budget and, uh, and had, and had pretty much complete autonomy.

I can recall with Ford and ge, uh, I, I agreed there were five players I would not trade without coming to them. Uh, obviously our stars. Anything else? I, I, I, you know, I, I had the authority, the autonomy to do what I felt had to be done from a baseball standpoint. Uh, we would, uh, would have, have, uh, have monthly board meetings and then sometimes phone calls in between.

But again, it was run like a business. If, if, if, if I, if I could, if, you know, if, if I could make a presentation and, uh, had the, had the, you know, had the, had the, had the evidence or the support to back it up. Fine. And I felt that really made it a whole lot easier cuz there weren't any egos involved. Nobody was trying to make out the lineup.

Nobody was saying, oh, I don't like this player, get rid of him, or, I don't like the way he dresses, or I don't like his haircut or something of that nature. I'm, I'm, I'm exaggerating to some degree. Sure. But you didn't have any personalities get involved and that made us, that put us in position to operate on what I, what I considered a more sound like basis.

Absolutely. So, so was the, what was the, lemme ask you a few more think of time we to wrap it up this evening. So what, what was the 19 season like? What was that like if you, you, you put that team together and it was just a real magical thing and the, the city was, was buzzing and alive and everything else.

What, what was that season like for you? Uh, 1980 was really magical. Well, I, uh, we had come close in 1979. Uh, you know, I had lead at the All-star break. Cincinnati, the big red machine just played lights out the second half. And, uh, and, uh, since then won, uh, but, uh,  since 1980, uh, you know, we, we had added, uh, Alan Ashby and Craig Reynolds for, for 1979.

We added Nolan Ryan and Joe Morgan for 1980. And that, uh, I, I, I thought that put it all together. It was just a magical season with a very, very talented, uh, club and, uh, under, under, under, under, under great direction and guidance from Bill Burton. So, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, let me ask you a couple more things here.

The plane. So, so you started, you started T Smith Enterprises after the 1980 season. So what was, what was that process like, like for you when you got to go in, you, you started your own business and you provided a service that was very important to most every Major League team. I, I, I, I had felt, I, you know, I explained earlier how when I started Cincinnati, staff were very small, you know, 11, 12, 13 people in, in the, in the entire office.

By this time, baseball was changing and I, I, I, I could sense, uh, that, uh, St. General managers were being asked. To, to do more than what they were, in some cases capable or qualified for. Right. Uh, you know, uh, it stands out would use as an example, and one, not the negotiation of radio and television contracts.

In some cases that used to be in the, in the hands of the general manager. I mean, he was a gentleman who was supposed to run the club. That doesn't necessarily mean he has expertise in radio and television negotiations. And they, and they, and it really didn't make a whole lot of sense to try to staff for that by bringing in experts because once they get it done, what do they do until the next contract comes up five, 10 years down the road?

And so from that standpoint, I thought, I, I, I thought baseball was getting into an area where, where, where, uh, where if you need specialization, You don't necessarily have to staff it yourself, go out and go out and hire it, so to speak. And that's what I tried to do when I started my consulting business. I thought from the standpoint of salary arbitration and contract negotiations, I explained to other general managers, players, enlist an agent for a region stand.

We should do the same thing. One from a time standpoint, expertise standpoint, from the standpoint of the personal relations and so on. So I, I thought there was a real need. And as it turned out, uh, you know, I, when I, when started the business, it, it sort of, it sort of mushed from it group that grew quickly and we ended up providing a lot of different services over the years.

We, we, we actually provided services to 26 of the 30 clubs in one area or the other. Arbitration became, became the most visible of those. But we did a lot of operational reviews and executive search kind of work and uh, and uh, Stan appraisals and so on. So, you know, I just thought there was a real need.

You can't always staff for this. Sometimes it's not an ongoing need. It's a temporary thing. You know, for example, example, contract negotiations and arbitration. It, it's changed some, but basically that was a very seasonal thing. You'd negotiate contracts at the end of the season, November, December, January, and so on.

Are, are you going? You gotta hire somebody to do that, you know? Sure. Or, or do you, or do you or you look for a consultant. So there you go. There we go. So your, your son Randy, was also a general manager for several years in the majors as a, as a father. What, what did that mean to have your son following your footsteps?

Uh, a great, a great deal of, uh, of, uh, pride. Uh, I, uh, I didn't push him that way. I just think he, uh, you know, he, he, uh, he, he'd, he had been exposed to it all his life. He was, he traveled. With me throughout the minor leagues and, uh, was in spring training and was at the ballpark every, every, every, every time he, every time he had the chance.

So it just sort of evolved. It, uh, it, it, it became his passion and that worked out for him. And, uh, turned out now when his, uh, his oldest grandson is sort of following the same path. Oh, very good. . Very good. Excellent. So, so when in, in 22 you were inducted into the, into Astros team Hall of Fame with other greats in the organization, what is, what does that ranking list of accomplishments and everything that you've done?

Baseball? Oh, it's a, it's a, it is a great honor, you know, and, uh, not, uh, you know, I, I spent, spent 35 years with the club and it's nice to, nice, uh, nice to have, uh, some of the contributions recognized. So from that, from that standpoint, it's very meaningful. So I'm very proud of it. Excellent. That's a, that's a great honor.

Very, very much, very much appreciate. By by everyone who's ever been a fan of this. So thank you very much. Thank you. Is is there any, uh, charit of a cause or organization that we could, uh, call attention to that we could come up? Any, anything near and dear to your heart? Oh, uh, not that, not that, not, not, not that comes to, to mine.

I used to be very active with Make-A-Wish, but they're, they're, they're doing well. I see Michael Jordan stepped up the other day with 10 million, so I, so, uh, but that, that, that was, uh, that, that was, uh, that was, that was a charity I did some work for. Uh, uh, the other, other things I'm interested in. I still support Culver when I can.

That's, that's, that's very meaningful to me. So, I didn't mean to rush through this for you at the end here. We sort of, it's, it's, it's just fine if, if, if you, if you need a, if you need a redo of some of it, I'll be happy to do that. Cuz I, I feel for the last 15 or 20 minutes I was, uh, I I, I've been so wordy in some of the other answers that I've probably cut you short on some of these.

It's, it's just fine. We, we covered a, we covered a whole lot here and you know, we're, we're in, uh, in the middle of a, have a restaurant here, spaghetti Western for the, for the saint meeting. So, so I thought, I thought we did pretty well. So, and, and that will do it for this edition of The Heroes and Icons Podcast and many, many thank yous to my special guest today, Tal Smith.

And a big thank you also goes out to longtime baseball TV broadcaster and our mutual friend. And now Houston Astros Hall, Ofer Phil Brown for helping connect us with the interview. And thank you once again, everyone for listening. Please remember to rate, share and review the podcast wherever you might be listening.

Have a great night. God bless. We see you next time.

If you need a redo on.