Ep. 24 Solving JFK podcast host and JFK Chokeholds author Matt Crumpton

summary

In this episode, host Greg Randolph engages with Matt Crumpton, a prominent researcher on the JFK assassination. They explore various aspects of the assassination, including the motivations behind Jack Ruby's actions, the implications of MKUltra, and the complex timeline of Lee Harvey Oswald. The conversation delves into multiple assassination plots, the involvement of Texas oil interests, and the potential roles of key figures like LBJ and the mafia. The discussion highlights the ongoing debates and conspiracy theories surrounding one of America's most significant historical events. In this conversation, Matt Crumpton and Greg Randolph delve into the intricate details surrounding the JFK assassination, exploring key figures, media portrayals, and the implications of the autopsy. They discuss the potential involvement of E. Howard Hunt and LBJ, the challenges of modern research, and the future of Oswald's legacy. The dialogue highlights the complexities of conspiracy theories and the ongoing quest for truth in historical narratives.

You can find Matt:

Solving JFK Podcast (@SolvingJfk) / X

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/solving-jfk/id1652334113

https://www.youtube.com/@solvingjfkpodcast

JFK Chokeholds book:

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Assassination-Chokeholds-Prove-Conspiracy/dp/B0CMTHBLDL

You can find Greg:

HeroesandIconspodcast (@GregHeroesIcons) / X

https://heroesandiconspodcast.com/

chapters

00:00 Introduction to JFK Assassination Insights
02:55 Matt Crumpton's Journey into JFK Research
05:58 The Role of Jack Ruby in the Assassination
08:39 Exploring MKUltra and Jack Ruby's Death
11:36 The Controversy Surrounding Lee Harvey Oswald
14:19 Multiple Plots and Conspiracies in JFK's Assassination
36:03 Investigating Danny Sheehan's Claims
39:17 The Many Factions Against JFK
40:29 Texas Oil and the Assassination
44:47 The Role of the Mafia in the Conspiracy
47:55 The CIA's Involvement and Oswald's Legend
49:07 Identifying Possible Shooters
56:02 Political Assassination in Cinema
01:01:59 E. Howard Hunt and His Confessions
01:04:47 Debunking Myths in JFK Assassination Literature
01:07:27 LBJ's Connections and Motives
01:10:30 The Role of LBJ in the Assassination
01:14:01 CIA Involvement and Covert Operations
01:16:58 NEWCHAPTER
01:17:30 Curtis LeMay and the Autopsy Controversy
01:23:05 Congressional Hearings and Public Perception
01:26:41 Challenges in Researching Historical Events
01:29:26 The Future of Oswald's Legacy

Transcript

Greg Randolph (00:02)
Welcome and thank you for joining us today on the heroes and icons podcast. I am your host Greg Randolph Please find me on the X at Greg heroes icons. I'm also a featured podcaster on Houston city beat comm That's a cool website for happenings and local businesses here in the Houston area So, please check them out and would you do me a favor if if you're enjoying the show? Would you please not only take a quick minute to review it on your favorite podcast platform? But also share it with a friend or two. Thank you in advance for doing that

We have a very special guest today. If you're an American history buff and for our purposes again this evening, a fan or student of the JFK assassination, you will greatly appreciate my next guest. He is the host for his own show, the highly acclaimed solving JFK podcast, which you can also find on all major platforms. If you're not familiar with solving JFK, Matt tackles all actors good, mostly bad, seems unfortunately and otherwise.

He engages the most intriguing angles of the JFK assassination and he also offers a chance for rebuttals and arguments, which I personally enjoy. I highly recommend Matt Shoe and his most valuable handbook, The JFK Assassination Chokeholds, which he co-authored with four other equally brilliant researchers to highlight several inescapably proven assassination chokeholds. He is also an attorney in the great state of Ohio, has written several books.

owns a couple of different companies and even has his own rap jam band. My guest today is Matt Crumpton. It's a tremendous honor to have you on the show with me. How you doing, Matt?

Matt Crumpton (01:39)
Good, thanks for having me on, Greg. It's a pleasure to be here.

Greg Randolph (01:43)
Good deal. when did your interest in the subject of the JFK assassination begin?

Matt Crumpton (01:51)
Well, I was about 11 years old when ⁓ JFK, the movie, came out. So I was a little bit too young for that when it came out. But what got me was some music videos. I've always been deep into music.

The two at the time, really around the time of the JFK assassination were Billy Joel's We Didn't Start the Fire, where he's in the kitchen and he's got Ruby shooting Oswald behind him there. And then the other one would be ⁓ Garth Brooks, The Dance. That's kind of just a music video for like...

Greg Randolph (02:14)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (02:26)
JFK assassination. It's like, you know, it's, it's crazy kind of how they did that. They have all this footage of, of them at Love Field, et cetera. So, so I was like, Hey, what's this about? And then my parents kind of said, Hey, well, the president was killed. And some people don't think that, the guy that they said did it actually did it because somebody else killed him right after that. And he said he was just a patsy. I was like, and then when I was a teenager, I found out about the Zapruder film and you know,

going back into the left. ever since then, I was always interested in it. And I dove deep preliminarily in college. And then I just thought there was too many potential culprits. It's impossible to get to the end of it and have time. I didn't have a good way to go about doing it. So, so, yeah, I kind of just walked away from it. Then I came back to it again in about 2019 and kind of wanted to.

gather all the information in one place, put it kind of in a digestible, palatable thing. Because I realize, you know, it's like you're out talking to people. like, oh, you got to go check out, you know, the details of the general Walker shooting. And it's like, where would they even go to do that? And I realize, you know, maybe I should just make a podcast. So that's kind of what led me to this.

Greg Randolph (03:41)
Okay. Very good. Well, let me start the program with asking about one Jack Ruby. I know, that's on the back end of the story to most, and I'm not, it's so intertwined. So I'm not really sure that it really matters where I start per se, but as for him killing Oswald, my understanding is that, ⁓ he was basically ordered to execute the hit by New Orleans mafia.

Don Carlos Marcello because Ruby had apparently been skimming off of the top of his gentleman's establishment carousel club in Dallas, which of course was run, Dallas was run by the Campisi brothers and the Western extension of the New Orleans empire. And so in order to, to spare his own life, Ruby had to kill Oswald. And while he might've had a safe bolted down in his office in the carousel club that

The 50,000 in the safe that he had was given to him apparently in Vegas a couple of weeks before the assassination to help him pay off the IRS. And so he was not paid per se to kill Oswald. But help me with this though. Why did he feel like he had to send the Western Union wire right before he went down the ramp that day?

Matt Crumpton (04:58)
Sure, yeah. Well, just real quickly on the Marcelo point of it, I mean, that to me is the explanation that seems to make the most sense. And what you just laid out is...

what a guy named Van Lanningham, who was Marcelo's cellmate and was part of Operation Camp Tex, they're recording everything they're saying. This is what Van Lanningham said that Marcelo said. in theory, this should be on tape and the tape remains classified. So if we really have Marcelo saying these things, Van Lanningham, who knew that there was a tape running while Marcelo's talking. I mean, he presumably would expect to have his

Greg Randolph (05:16)
Thank

Matt Crumpton (05:39)
statements verified against the record. Maybe. So I'm saying I say that to say I think he's credible. I'm not just throwing away what he's saying, but it's not proven. It's just you've got that. And that's compelling to me, but it's not definitive as to as to why Ruby did it.

There's another competing argument of why Ruby did it, which is that Meyer Lansky really is the one that sent him. So I'll be jumping into that to some extent.

For our purposes, yes, I do think that the Marcello sending him does seem to especially in light of the Campisi and Civello connections that does I mean, that seems to make the most sense. Now, your question about Western Union. So I got to go to Dallas to speak at the JFK conference down there. And while I was there on a Friday, I kind of went around to all these different landmarks in Dallas and put together a YouTube video and ⁓

One of the places that I went was the Western Union because I wanted to see for my own eyes. How far away is this from the jail? And the answer is it's about maybe 100 yards.

Greg Randolph (06:56)
Yep.

Matt Crumpton (06:57)
I'm thinking in

high school quarterback. I like to bring that up whenever I can. But I think in terms of like football yards, like, wearing my uncle Rico hat, could I have thrown that, 75 yards or whatever? And so the answer is probably, you know, maybe 100, 150 yards, but it's about 70, maybe 50 yards from the back of the building, which is where Paul Abbott, who's an expert on this, on the whole Ruby killing Oswald.

Greg Randolph (07:02)
you

.

Matt Crumpton (07:24)
He says that's where Ruby got in. So the point is he could easily have seen to get a signal of, when it's time to come or not. I that is speculation to some extent. The reason it's suspicious is ⁓ Ruby is the one who set up being a Western Union. So back to your question, why? Why Western Union? The whole point of that is it's supposed to demonstrate, OK, now why?

Well, if you believe that, you know, Ruby just randomly did it, the answer is because Ruby needed to pay his, his dancer that, you know, needed his help. So he was wiring her money. But if you sort of knock on the story a little more and zoom in more, you find that Ruby the night before actually set that up, met with her in person and said, Hey, you need money, right? I'm going to, I'm going to send you money through Western Union.

And she's like, yeah, sure. have money for ⁓ the rent. then supposedly her landlord's pushing her. And then the landlord's interviewed. And he says he never did that. So I say all that to say it seems to be a story that he made up in my mind in terms of like, or that he put there in advance, sort of like having the dog in the car. Like, look.

I went to Western Union. This is why I was over here. I'm going to the Western Union. I left my dog in the car. What you think? I just went to go kill Oswald on purpose and I was planning on killing him. Well, yes, Jack. Actually, I do think you were playing killing him. And the smoking gun evidence for that is the testimony of a man. just talked about this guy very recently, but he's the guy who owns the parking garage across the street from the Carousel Club. I talked about it in my episode with ⁓

Greg Randolph (08:49)
Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (09:08)
my Jack Ruby recap and rebuttal. anyway, that guy, ⁓ he testifies to the warrant commission. There's all these FBI reports. And he hears Ruby on the phone on Saturday talking to someone saying, yes, I will be there when he's transferred. I'll be at the transfer. This is on the record. It's in the warrant commission. So the point is, and he was seen by three guys in a TV truck right before kind of walking around. He's stalking Oswald all weekend.

Greg Randolph (09:24)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (09:37)
Okay, he's there on Friday and I believe he's there Saturday. I know he's there Friday. But anyway, I say all that to say it seems to be a thing to be made up so that he could basically have an alibi of why he was there. But ⁓ none of that makes sense. and he basically ⁓ is all relieved after he finds out Oswald actually died, even though that would mean he get the death penalty.

Greg Randolph (09:37)
Right. Yep.

Matt Crumpton (10:05)
Yeah, there's a lot of reasons to question the official narrative vis-a-vis Jack Ruby.

Greg Randolph (10:13)
My understanding from Lou Ferrante and I had him on ⁓ a few months back was that in mafia terms, if you get the hit and you don't do it for whatever reason, your gun jams or whatever it is, well, too bad, you're gonna get clipped next. So you either do the hit or you get taken out. That was my understanding from his point of view.

Matt Crumpton (10:38)
Yeah, well, I know Ruby had a lot of siblings and so perhaps he was worried about his siblings. You know, that's the other thing. ⁓ So, you know, the problem is there's not like there are documents on many things. There are documents on enough things to make me say the official story cannot be true. But you kind of have to piece things together to an extent based on things you know are true because some documents are destroyed, some are missing and then some some

Greg Randolph (10:44)
Sure.

Matt Crumpton (11:07)
you know incidents are the type of things that don't generate documents you know what mean?

Greg Randolph (11:11)
Yep. I got you. I got you. Hey, so can Matt, can you enlighten us on the, ⁓ on the MK ultra program and for our listeners, how did, how did Ruby actually die? Because there seemed to be some conflicting stories on that. Like once he got to jail and then he had the, flu or the, the injection of sales flu shot, whatever. And it was actually cancer cells, apparently.

Matt Crumpton (11:36)
Yeah, so MKUltra, that it was basically a mind control program using LSD and hypnosis combined. ⁓ And it was run in the 50s and in the 60s some extent by a guy named ⁓ Sidney Gottlieb, who was the technical director of the Central Intelligence Agency. There were a lot of little cutouts and sort of like

you know, university research projects here and there who some wittingly, some unwittingly were participating in these MKULTRA experiments, you know. So in other words, they may not have known where the funding came from, but it was kind of the stuff that MKULTRA was doing, is, you know, mostly LSD. Can we, ⁓ can we induce ⁓ psychosis? Can we wipe people's memory? Can we,

Get the truth out of people. All those kind of things. Can we implant memories in people? ⁓ All those just the far out there stuff. And Jack Ruby, the way MKUltra relates to Jack Ruby is that one of the infamous MKUltra doctors, Jolly West, Dr. Louis Jolion West, visited Jack Ruby four times in prison. Most importantly,

Greg Randolph (12:49)
Thank

Matt Crumpton (12:56)
the visit in April of 1964, about six weeks before he would testify to the Warren Commission during Jolly West's first visit with Jack Ruby. He has a psychotic break. And there were six different psychiatrists who interviewed and assessed Ruby before that, before Jolly West. And then Jolly West is with him for just a little bit. And then just look at that. He has a psychotic break.

And so Jolly West is the guy who's famous for giving people psychotic breaks. And then Jack Ruby has a psychotic break. I think even this guy Tom O'Neill has got this great book, Chaos, which usually is behind me, but I guess I've moved it to another bookshelf for now. But anyway, Tom O'Neill's Chaos is great book. And he kind of lays out all the stuff that Jolly West did. But he interviews Jolly West's best friend.

from like for 40 years. This guy knows him better than anybody else. And he said, do you think it's possible that Jolly West would agree to go and scramble Jack Ruby's brain on behalf of the CIA? Is that the type of thing he would do? And his friend was like, absolutely. That's definitely the type of thing he would do. I mean, it was really funny. So and then the whole cancer cells, that is not something that is supported by any sort of factual.

It's like there may be, you let me say this. I didn't dive super duper deep into that. ⁓ Let me tell what the official story is and then we'll talk about what you just said. The official story, which I don't agree with many times, but it is where I start with because I go, okay, here's what we have to, this is what they're saying. So they're gonna have something for that. We have to have something to attack what they're saying if it's anything different, right? So the official story is he got lung cancer and

late 1966 while he's awaiting a new trial, by the way. So everything will be coming to light all again from the very beginning. OK. And this is after the assassination was hot. Like it was there was all these books out. Like it was a very most people didn't believe the Warren Commission. So so there would certainly be motive to try to, you know, silence Jack Ruby and not have that trial. But it was cancer that he got in late December and he died on January 3rd, 1967.

Greg Randolph (14:52)
you

Matt Crumpton (15:13)
I'm sorry, late 67. So maybe it was November or December that he got it. His formal cause of death was a pulmonary embolism that supposedly was related to lung cancer that he got. OK. Is it possible that he organically got the cancer? The argument, because people say he got fast acting cancer and died immediately. And there's a big dispute of like, well, that doesn't exist. They can't do it. And it's like, well.

I don't know that the CIA's technical division is going to issue a press release the day they find out that they learned how to do that, if they did. it's just one of those things ⁓ that ⁓ is it possible? mean, I don't know enough about like biological cancer science to know whether or not like from a biological standpoint, that's even a thing today that's possible. People say that it's not. I looked at this issue a little bit, but I'd say be open.

I'm open to it if there's evidence on it. But I just, there's not like an obvious piece of evidence. Like the example I gave with the guy that testified to the Warren Commission with the garage across the street where Ruby's doing, I'm going to be there to transfer. Some of these things are there. It's there in like the Warren Commission's own documents don't support its conclusion. And that's kind of why this is such a conspiracy.

Greg Randolph (16:35)
I gotcha. I understood that in New Orleans, I mean not oddly enough, but in New Orleans, ⁓ David Ferry was somehow involved in the outset of the cancer research. Correct me if I'm wrong there. Have you heard that?

Matt Crumpton (16:47)
very ⁓

There

was cancer research that was going on and there was cancer research that was going on on mice. And he had a lot of mice apparently. And then there's the doctor that was killed, Dr. Mary. I can't think of her last name. There's a book about her called Mary's Monkey. But anyway.

Greg Randolph (17:15)
Okay.

that was unsolved still. ⁓

Matt Crumpton (17:18)
Still, it's still

an unsolved murder. So I think people look at that and they go, look, they're doing these cancer research. And then they go, he died really, really fast. And they kind of put those things together. But I'm just saying, I haven't seen the evidence. Perhaps it exists. If anyone's aware of it, it to me. I'll take a look.

Greg Randolph (17:36)
I gotcha. Well, let's move. back to, one Lee Harvey Oswald. And again, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but there's, there's so much here. So it's, it's been established by, by the Warren commission that he only needed a world-class sprint of, you know, I think Oliver Stone said that at the congressional hearings, he would have had to have been a track star, um, of just one minute and 14 seconds to hide the murder weapon. And then

still had a mere four seconds left to get down from the sixth floor to the second floor before being encountered by police officer Marion Baker, who had stormed the depository looking for the killer right after Kennedy was shot. according to your amazing chapter in the book, the JFK assassination chokeholds, and you lay this out brilliantly, but which element of this

particular part of the testimony really sticks out to you.

Matt Crumpton (18:36)
Well, ⁓ I would say I'm Marion Baker. The famous story is really ⁓ made famous by Oliver Stone's film with Baker seeing Oswald drinking a Coke on the second floor. That is the story that the Warren Commission landed on. But what I like to do is look at the first day affidavits. So the statements that people give first before anybody could come talk to them.

haven't changed their statement. And Marion Baker says that they encountered someone on the third or fourth floor and they didn't say it was a lunchroom. So that's a little weird. Now, you know, once he starts testifying to the Warren Commission, his story becomes consistent. But that was never really explained. So I'm just I'm not telling you what I think that means. I'm just saying that's a

An anomaly that I noticed. in terms of what's convincing about why Oswald was not likely on the sixth floor, I would say the, you know, the girls on the stairs, they've come to be known. ⁓ man, what are their names? It's been so long. It's been a minute since I zoomed in on that. there are two women who were on this. Sandra Stiles and Sandra Spencer.

Greg Randolph (19:52)
Yes.

Matt Crumpton (19:58)
No, no, no, no. That's a different lady. That's the lady that did the autopsy x-rays. Sandra Stiles and Victoria Adams, maybe? I think that's what it is. ⁓ They were on the fourth floor, and they said that they're watching the motorcade. And as soon as they saw the presidential limo go under the overpass, the Stemmings Freeway, they

Greg Randolph (20:08)
I believe so.

Matt Crumpton (20:26)
immediately went down the stairs. Okay, and they didn't hear Oswald. So they went from the fourth floor to the first floor, but they should have heard Oswald if he was running from the sixth floor down to the second floor and they and they you know were there then separately the there's a lady who is on the fourth floor who maybe I think she was a secretary. She says that she saw the cops come up.

after they went down. So that tells you they must have gone down fast enough. They didn't wait forever. They went down pretty fast because after they went down, the cops came up after that. And so that would have been after that interaction with Oswald. ⁓ that's one thing. Another thing, there's a guy in the door of the fifth floor, fifth floor, who's working really close to the stairway on the fifth floor, Doherty, and he doesn't see Oswald come down or anybody come down. So, you know,

There's no evidence for it. That's the main thing. There's no, only evidence that Oswald was there. You do have fingerprints on a couple of boxes. Okay. And the sniper's nest. All right. But it's like a weird palm print. If you zoom into the exact type of prints that are, it's not that compelling, I guess. And the other thing is Oswald was up there moving the boxes around. So yes, his fingerprints are going to be on things. That's, that's kind of means nothing.

But yeah, there's, and you know, remember the guys that, Dorothy, same guy, he's kind of a big witness. When Oswald enters the building that morning, supposedly he's got his ⁓ curtain rods, his long bag. Well, he says Oswald had nothing in his hand at all. So, yeah.

Greg Randolph (22:09)
Mm-hmm.

My understanding is that, is that Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister, I think maybe had originally testified that he didn't, he either had nothing on or he just had like a small sandwich bag like that you would fold in a paper sack and take to work or school, whatever. But really that they had to place the carton rods in the back of that car.

so it all fit together, so their narrative fit. then, mean, another part of this whole thing is that his sister probably was threatened with her life too, but Buell was threatened with the electric chair if he didn't change his story and then stick to it, was my understanding on that.

Matt Crumpton (23:04)
Well, I know that that Frazier did have the Midnight Polygraph and the details of that were never released. ⁓ It was real fuzzy, definitely strange. Now, what you're saying about him giving a prior statement and then changing his statement, I've heard people allude to that, but I just don't like where do think that's what's that from? Do you have any idea?

Greg Randolph (23:28)
I don't. I got that from another researcher, was my understanding.

Matt Crumpton (23:33)
Okay. Well,

I think so. lot of these things are things that people can reasonably speculate happened. Like, in other words, why would they bring him in for the lie detector test? Why would they treat him like this? You know what I mean? And so there's definitely something that's not in the official record that they're not telling us because what they're saying doesn't make sense. Now,

The idea that he gave a prior story and then had to change his story, that would make sense. But I'm just saying, what I try to specialize in is things I can point to with a document or a testimony. You know what I mean? Because a lot of the way I look at it is, look, I'll cover something, and then I either take it off the board. I leave it on the board and say, I don't know, come back to that one later. It could be. we, you know.

Greg Randolph (24:13)
Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (24:25)
see it in different context.

I think the case is so vast that even doing this 25 hours a week for three full years now going to my fourth year, I still have not covered enough to begin to add stuff in that I don't know is proven. You know what saying? But that is reasonable speculation, I would say, about Buell-Wesley Frazier.

Greg Randolph (24:45)
All right, understood.

Okay, good enough. So sticking with Oswald here, when do you think he might have been marked as the Patsy?

I mean, is it George deMorenshield? Is it Ruth Payne convincing them to move from the Orleans to Dallas? mean, where do you land on that?

Matt Crumpton (25:02)
This is.

I really don't know. And I've asked, I mean, I remember the day I met Jim D Eugenio, the first question I asked him was this question. when, when did it start with Oswald? And the answer is nobody knows for sure. but let's look at, you know, look at what we do know. ⁓ we know that there's the, the, the backyard photo is,

in early April. It's right around the time of the Walker shooting. And so for the Walker shooting, either Oswald did not participate in that at all and it's just totally fabricated. If so, the marina is lying and a letter was fabricated. However, it's also possible that Oswald did participate in the general Walker shooting. However, he did it with somebody else who was driving him.

And if he did that, then it would be him participating in creating a legend for himself, basically, you know, putting things out there. Kind of the problem, the reason I kind of tend to think that Oswald didn't, wasn't involved in the general Walker shooting if I had to pick one is just because it never comes up. It's never on anyone's radar. The bullets, the slug doesn't, doesn't match the weapon that they said was his. Okay. The bullet in, in.

door. Now the bullet that they later had an evidence did match but the one that is in all the police reports that the police talk about did not match. So that's you know there's a lot of asterisks there. When did I was one of the Oswald operations start. So OK. Presidents killed they want to have Oswald as a Patsy to look to. So they got to they got to build this backstory with him. OK. So it's definitely going on in New Orleans because what's the first thing that happens after Kennedy's killed.

Hey, Oswald, look, here's a film of him handing out flyers for fair play for Cuba. You know, he was there 15 minutes handing the flyers out. Strange. The strangest thing. The ⁓ the TV station came and filmed like 10 of the 15 minutes. And when you look at all the people who are there, there's like nine FBI informants and five CIA assets like dirt like that are there just surrounding it. It's like the Truman Show. OK, so that's in New Orleans.

So it's definitely going on at least before he goes to New Orleans, I would say is when they're sort of. And by the way, where does he go work? He works at the Riley Coffee Company, which is arguably intelligence linked. mean, I think it's the guy who used to be really high up at the FBI worked there and then they had a bunch of people, Lee, all Oswald's bosses left to go work for this.

aerospace contractor, you know, different arguments, whatever about the significance of that. Mexico City is the next big one. Right. So here's the question. Was it before Russia? No, because Kennedy wasn't even president then. So maybe he was used as an asset in some way. And then they sent him to the Soviet Union. That's a different story. Then when he comes back. OK. Well, if you're asking, is Oswald going to be the patsy for the assassination of Kennedy? Well, let's see. George deMorenshield.

We're looking at 1962. maybe, mean, Kennedy's starting to really piss people off by 1962. So I would answer your question. It's either before he went. It's probably before he went to New Orleans. It's probably things are really starting to happen for the plotters probably, I would say, at least March, April. March, the weapon, which has a bunch of anomalies around the shipping of it, et cetera.

Greg Randolph (28:41)
Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (29:00)
That's shipped in March. I'm going to go with the ship date of the weapon for $500.

Greg Randolph (29:08)
Well, let me segue into this then since we're talking about that. And then he's placed in the Texas School Book Depository. ⁓ And so a lot of people might not be aware of this, but there were actually several plots to kill JFK that seemingly had similar characteristics. you had, take Chicago, you had the four Cubans with the high-powered rifles and an ex-Marine.

Thomas Valley? Yes. And then, know, Richard Case Nagel, you could make a case for him. And then, but here's the interesting part of this. So in Tampa, for example, it's in the chokeholds book, right wing extremist Joseph Miltier was recorded to have said, quote, hell, they'll just pick up somebody within hours after.

Matt Crumpton (29:38)
Arthur and Alex.

Greg Randolph (30:02)
if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off unquote. So how would, how would he and Ro Sheramie and Richard Case Nagel and others know all these, all these details about the, about the Dallas plot.

Matt Crumpton (30:18)
Milk tear is I believe that was in Miami the milk tear one. The Tampa plot that guy the supposed Patsy for that one was a guy named I think Polycarpo Lopez or something like that. But but but but anyway I mean yeah that's real and that's on tape and that's that's hard to explain. And so the county it's like.

Greg Randolph (30:30)
Yes, yes.

Matt Crumpton (30:40)
There really there's no conspiracy. Why is this guy talking about exactly what happened? He also talked about he's going to be shot from a building with a high powered rifle during the parade route. I mean, so yeah, that's the thing. Miltier was not connected with the other alleged plots necessarily. He kind of had his own thing going. So now.

Was it all looped into the set? So that's one question. Like were there you brought you said there were multiple plots there. There are multiple attempts and you know ⁓ Chicago there's more evidence for than Tampa to be honest with you. But the problem even in Chicago the evidence is. ⁓

Greg Randolph (31:14)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (31:27)
erased. It's one guy, Abraham Bolden. But the thing is, what's proven is that this guy lied about Bolden to get him in jail. And that's established. And there's no reason why he lied. So I don't know. I think it's a closer call than a lot of people think. But there's something there, I think, in Chicago in particular. But yeah, what was your question on that? Just the other plots?

Greg Randolph (31:53)
Yeah, like Rose Cheriemi was picked up by Francis Rouge and Richard Case Nagel and like how would they have any knowledge of what was going to go on if it was supposed to be these guys were working independently and all these other things?

Matt Crumpton (31:58)
All right.

Yeah, I have an episode on foreknowledge. I believe it's in the late 50s, like episode 58 or something like that. know, Sherriam and Richard Case-Nagel are interesting cases because it's just there's there's arguments on both sides for them. found once you zoom in. However, they both have these crazy little little facts that hook you back in. I went through a thing with them where I was like,

Greg Randolph (32:17)
Yes.

Matt Crumpton (32:44)
man, these people may not be legit and there's so much based on Cherie and Nigel. But for Cherie, the problem is once you zoom into the hyper super duper weeds, some of the doctors who said they said things changed their testimony and did these things. You're like, wow, why are you changing your testimony? So some of those things speak for themselves. Cherie, the name of the silver slipper was found on a piece of scrap paper.

with the name, which is the bar that Cherie was found at, which was found as a piece of scrap paper with the names Jack Rubenstein and Lee Harvey Oswald. And that scrap of paper was in the backyard of this Cuban doctor who was like basically close to all these Cuban exiles. And so for me, I was like, dang, that's

weird. There's and there's FBI reports on it. Like a scrap of paper. What you listen to the episode. It's a whole thing. And then and then the other Richard case to gal this like the problem is, you know, there's this story. There's a narrative about Nigel where hey, he goes in and he fires the shots into the ceiling and he did it because he's like, there's going to be an assassination that's about to happen. But the problem is when we look at the documents, we go way back and look at the documents. That's not what he's saying. He's he's saying other things, but he's not mentioning anything about the assassination now.

Greg Randolph (34:05)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (34:09)
Is Richard Case Nagle totally garbage? I don't think so because one of the things that was found amongst his possessions is a ⁓ notebook that had names and contact information of all these CIA assets that

regular person wouldn't know. And there's a CIA document about that. And by the way, I asked really smart people who have studied this area in particular, their thoughts on Nigel, like Professor John Newman, who used to be the executive, who's like the liaison for the director of national security, Andrew George Bush. And he shares the view that Nigel was definitely onto something and knew some stuff.

Greg Randolph (34:42)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (34:55)
And then the other ones, you know, there's a bunch of them. You just kind of have to zoom into each one. And I don't think everything everybody says is always true, but ⁓ there's usually some key document or some, some, you know, hard evidence that you can tether things to.

Greg Randolph (35:18)
I I gotcha. Did you get a chance to watch that, ⁓ let me digress here, did you get a chance to watch that James Earl Jones documentary I was telling you about?

Matt Crumpton (35:27)
you know, I started to and appreciate you sending me the link. I didn't get a chance to finish it, but it was interesting.

Greg Randolph (35:32)
Okay.

Yeah, the reason I brought this up is that it kind of ties into my next question here. I think it was Dan Sheahan who mentioned, the attorney who mentioned that on Clint Murchison's Texas Oil Mogul, everything else, on his Mexico ranch, that there were several assassination teams there. They were in other locations too, but that there were assassination teams.

on his ranch, you know, practicing.

Matt Crumpton (36:04)
Yeah.

Yeah. What she and said was that the triangular fire team, the S-Force, was practicing on Richardson's Ranch in Oaxaca, Mexico. I'd love to see some support for that other than just she and I'd like to zoom in more on what he has to say. mean, he was there and he did work for F. Bailey and

their investigators talk to Santos Traficante and Traficante is the one that told them all these things. So I think it's, mean, you asked me, right, you know, we'll talk about the who done it later, but you know, I think Danny Sheehan is either telling us the truth or, and he's solved it or he's, or he's making it up and he's this disinformation, which I would hate to think.

is true because I've interacted with him a couple times and had very positive interactions with him. And I have a lot of respect for him, but you know, I've had a lot of people just be like, you're kind of just blindly believing this guy. So, I'm trying to keep an open mind and not be gullible, but also not be a jerk to someone who's been very, very cool to me.

Greg Randolph (37:15)
okay, let me ask kind of a pointed question here. Why would someone like that fabricate such a story? What possible reason would they have for doing that? If I'm not saying that that, because I believe what he's saying. I don't believe that I'm just saying if he did, why do you, what possible reason might he have?

Matt Crumpton (37:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I'm not saying he did either. I'm just saying people, I'm just saying what he's saying is just positive of the case. It solves the case. So and he's in a position to be there and know. So I don't think he's one of the for him. I wouldn't say it's he won't. The answer is always fame and money. And that's definitely not the case for him. Follow this guy's career. Danny Sheehan is the lawyer who led to the discovery of the Iran Contra scandal.

Greg Randolph (38:01)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (38:01)
mean,

Sheehan was a lawyer on the Pentagon Papers. He's legendary, actually. But why would he do it? The answer is, like I said, he's telling the truth, or he's working for the CIA, actively spreading this information, is what people would say. But I just wanted to come on my podcast so that we can zoom into the details. He's got a 20-class course at UC Santa Barbara, I believe, where he taught. Again.

I'm not saying that I think that I'm just saying ⁓ what he's saying is so important that, you know, as someone who's got the podcast is supposed to sort through all the stuff, I can't just be like, I had dinner with this guy. He's nice and he solved it. So there it is. We're good. You're like, we got to keep going, you know.

Greg Randolph (38:50)
Sure. ⁓ So let me jump over to this for just a minute. with JFK and RFK for that matter, just having made so many enemies, do we think was, I mean, we talked about Murchison just now, but there are several factions that could have easily had a beef in and of themselves where

where JFK is concerned. maybe there's LBJ, maybe there's, Texas oil, the mafia, know, Carlos Marcelo, who was deported by RFK, the CIA secret service, you know, so on and so on. So the question that I have in this is not, I mean, it's, it is that, but the question I have here is,

There's a notion or an allegation, I should say, that the Dallas oil guys, H.L. Hunt and Clint Mergeson allegedly paid each gun in 50,000 each, so it could not be traced back to the CIA or the mafia. Have you heard that at all?

Matt Crumpton (39:57)
What? No. Where did you get that from?

Greg Randolph (40:02)
another researcher at asked me that there's this, there's this crazy and you know, he cautioned me against, ⁓ to, to be very careful about foreign correspondence, putting out these, these pieces, the propaganda pieces, whatever we want to call them. But there's a three and a half hour documentary by an English gentleman who's put together this whole crazy long, assassination.

theory, whatever, you know, which shooters are placed where and who all the people were at the Mercheson party the night before and blah blah blah. So that's I think that's where I got that one.

Matt Crumpton (40:41)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not hip to that level. I I did an episode on Texas oil, and there's some shady things there, especially DH Bird. DH Bird made a lot of money in insider trading. So it's kind of looking like DH Bird had inside information. And he bought the damn schoolbook depository building. Not right before.

Greg Randolph (40:54)
Mm-hmm.

does.

You beat me to it. was

just going to say that. Yep. Like just in the event that it might be needed.

Matt Crumpton (41:10)
made up a lie about being on safari when it happened. Like provably he lied about this big story. He like went to great land, an elaborate lie. Okay. About being on safari in Africa. And so, so that's really shady. H.L. Hunt is tough because there's not a lot on him. There's kind of like a lot of innuendo. And then we've got, we got Jack Ruby and

Greg Randolph (41:34)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (41:37)
the mafia guy Braden meeting with H.L. Hunt's office the day before the assassination.

Greg Randolph (41:44)
So why

would they have met with somebody so powerful? And these are low level guys. Why would they have met with him?

Matt Crumpton (41:53)
Yeah, well, to be clear,

Ruby was dropping off a dancer at the building. That's the official story. It's not like these things get kind of get like a telephone game. And it's like, yeah, the Warren Commission said that Ruby and H.L. Hunt and Jim Braden were all hanging out talking about crossfire. And like, no, like he was at the he was there the same day. And.

Greg Randolph (42:01)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (42:19)
I don't recall if he went inside the building or not. think he even went inside the building. Braden was there for a meeting with Lamar Hunt, I believe. So, you know, could it have been a coincidence?

Perhaps that Ruby and Braden were in the same building. I don't think it's a coincidence that Braden was in town because Braden also is in Dealey Plaza at the moment it happens. So I think Braden is a character to keep an eye on and there's a police report and an affidavit from him as well, which of course he's lying in. So you're kind of asking who did it in a way.

I'm making my way in the JFK case today. It takes everything I got, So we got Secret Service. There's some weird anomalies here. But the Secret Service at large is not the problem. The problem is Floyd Boring, Emory Roberts, and then ⁓ Winston Lawson.

Greg Randolph (43:03)
Understood.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (43:25)
And the question is, were they just, they're the ones that sort of made the key decisions, Winston Lawson in particular. And the question is, where they, did someone tell them to do that? I don't think they just did it rogue. So the question is, if someone did, then who? And nobody knows, no one's really ever ⁓ opined on that. And then FBI, Hoover, you could argue was reckless ⁓ in not reporting some things that came in to the Secret Service, but.

But Hoover, I don't think had foreknowledge or had any involvement, but he definitely is heavily involved in the cover up, ⁓ which there's documents that point to that. LBJ, my gosh, we spent nine episodes on him. It's a whole thing. Kind of landed on some of the really famous LBJ things, maybe not being as credible as previously thought, but.

Greg Randolph (44:07)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (44:20)
learning that LBJ is so deeply connected to every single player that the likelihood that he at least had foreknowledge is high. And he orchestrated the cover up, of course, you know, the warrant commission. So ⁓ and that there's very, very strong evidence on that. And then we just finished the mafia and. It's not the mafia at large, it's Marcello and Traficante, throwing little bit of Giancana and Roselli. That's what we're talking about. And.

Greg Randolph (44:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (44:49)
Like I said, there's no documents, but we got this recording of Marcelo in prison confessing everything. But what a mafia don like that just kind of talk big anyway. I don't know. And then the other thing is, you know, so when we try to figure out who actually did this thing, so who have we not covered? Haven't covered Israel. That'll be fun. So that's my nice thing I'm doing. And then I've got the Soviet Union and then I've got Cuba, then have Cuban exiles. Then I have the CIA. Then I have the generals.

So that's the rest of the plan. And I'm hoping to kind of put something together as I get going. But kind of what I just laid out is what I see now. And the Cuban exiles, I think if I had to guess where I'm going to land, is probably going to involve the exiles. One major fact that you're talking about Lou Ferrante, who's great. Love Lou Ferrante. He's awesome. But he

Greg Randolph (45:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (45:44)
made something clear to me that that it was just like a little bit of context, but I didn't appreciate it. It's kind of a big deal. I knew that Carlos Marcello was funding the ⁓ the Cuban Revolutionary Council, the CRC, I believe is what was called. But he

continued to fund it even after JFK shut it down and took the gunships and the US Marshals to the training bases at no name key and Lake Pontchartrain and all these places and burned it down. Marcelo is the one who's financing it to keep it going. if people's argument is and by the way, and like Lou Ferrante, his arguments kind of well, the CIA and the anti Castro Cubans did it. But but you know, Marcelo helped finance it.

and he thinks it's Marcelo's call. For me, know, basically kind of what Lou said is, Marcelo knew that he had him by the balls. And so he knew that if he ordered the hit, they know they're implicated. They're going to have to figure out how to cover up the autopsy later. Right. But to me, it makes more sense that the planner would have had that dialed in because that seems to be so central to everything.

Greg Randolph (46:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (46:58)
So I just I think it's more likely that it came from top down and Marcelo is involved and maybe subjectively he thinks he is quarterbacking it because he's paying and he's kill these guys. Well, they're already going to kill the guy. So it's like in law I believe is called a superseding cause or an intervening cause is the idea of like if one if you got one wick burning and then another wick reaches that reaches the actual dynamite first before the one that started.

Who's the one that actually killed him? Well, the second one did. They literally did it. But the first one was going to do it anyway. So I think we may have a situation like that here. It's a well orchestrated scenario, but we know the CIA is involved because they're the ones that put together the Oswald legend. So we know they're involved in setting up Oswald and there would have to be somebody would have to find out about the Oswald operation, the existence of this man.

who's got this history of going to the Soviet Union and then getting arrested for handing out fair play for Cuba Flyers and then going to Mexico City and visiting with the Soviet embassy, the guy who's in charge of assassinations for the Western Hemisphere, Valerie Kostakov. You'd have to know all that to put it together. so, David Atlee Phillips, Bill Harvey, David Morales. These are the people guys people talk about. And I think

Greg Randolph (48:21)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (48:23)
That's reasonable and I haven't studied it yet, but from what I've seen of it, that seems to be a reasonable possible place where this could land. But I'm going to get radically in the weeds and I'll check back in with you once I'm on the other side.

Greg Randolph (48:42)
There you go. There you go. Well, speaking of getting really just down into the the weeds, what have you run across on just on the subject of of possible shooters that participated in the actual assassination? let me list some names here. So you've got John Sweatra, who was mentioned, I think, on ⁓ Rob Reiner's podcast, Frank Sturgis.

Erminio Diaz Garcia, Harry Weatherford, Jack Cannon, Jack Lawrence, Jim Braden, Johnny Rosselli. I love these mob names. Chucky the Typewriter, also known as Charles Nicoletti. Have you? Go ahead. Yeah, sure. First one is Jean Sweatra.

Matt Crumpton (49:31)
John Sweatra, that's a French Corsican assassin, I believe, he says that he's not the one who was there and a guy named ⁓ Merz, Michelle or Michael Merz, M-E-R-T-Z, was just using his ID.

But I haven't covered that. I've only looked at that in the context of OAS as it relates to Israel. So that's fun. So that one I'd say leave on the board. Not roll out yet. It's possible. But I just thought what's the next one.

Greg Randolph (50:04)
Yeah.

Frank Sturgis.

Matt Crumpton (50:10)
Sturgis is definitely involved it would seem it would seem Sturgis is involved because Sturgis is there working with Castro on behalf of the CIA and and ⁓ then he's working against Castro and you know there's all the stuff with Marita Lorenz and I interviewed this guy AJ Webberman he's a character man and he was he's lived he was in the middle of all this he was

Greg Randolph (50:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (50:40)
friends with marita lorenz and he's friends with jerry hemming and frank sturgis would all would like come and yell at him and stuff and like this is an interesting interesting guy but i'll have to talk to him again ⁓ but but anyway ⁓ the point is ⁓ frank sturgis is definitely a person of interest and ⁓ i would not take him off the board was he an assassin i mean he's in the he's in the mix i don't know about him as an assassin but i don't have enough to rule it out yet so i

Move them on the board.

Greg Randolph (51:09)
There

was a, I saw a video clip of maybe his girlfriend or our wife that asked him point blank, it's like, were you involved in this? And he says, he said, his, she says that he said, yeah, so what? And so that's where, that's kind of where I've, where I have Sturgis. But it's, said, yep.

Matt Crumpton (51:28)
Mmm.

Well, I look forward to getting super deep on that as well.

What's next one?

Greg Randolph (51:37)
Next is, Arminio Diaz Garcia.

Matt Crumpton (51:41)
Yeah, definitely. mean, he's leaving on the board. He's a Cuban exile. He's feel like maybe some other exile or connected person said that he was involved. we know, you know, look, there's a guy who's sitting next to the umbrella man who turns and he speaks into a walkie talkie that he then tucks into his back and he walks the other way under the overpass. This is right after the shots are fired.

Greg Randolph (51:54)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (52:10)
And no one knows who that is. There were also people seen in the lot where the stockade fence, behind the stockade fence, where the shots supposedly came from up on the grassy knoll. People were in that parking lot and they had radios, walkie talkies. Lee Bauer saw them. I believe there was somebody else that saw someone with a walkie talkie. And these were not law enforcement or Secret Service.

Yes, Herminio Garcia, I'd leave him on the board. The other three in a row, I just don't know enough about to say one way the other. And then who were last few at the end?

Greg Randolph (52:45)
Yeah. Okay.

Jim Braden, Johnny Rosselli, and Charles Nicoletti.

Matt Crumpton (52:56)
We talked about Braden. He's there in Dealey Plaza. So I wouldn't eliminate him. then I know, listen, people are like, oh, you would think all these people did it. They all did it, man. Every single one. No, not saying they all did it. I'm saying it's a process of elimination right now. So we even won the board. come back. Braden. Yeah. Is it maybe Rosselli is older in 1960s? He's not super duper old, but

I would take Roselli off the board as a shooter and I also I don't think Roselli is going to have any operational ⁓ involvement. Now he's down there at the bases with the exiles as their training ⁓ and it's much longer than than the you know the church committee tells us. We know this from Bradley Ayers who was down there with him. ⁓ So

Greg Randolph (53:41)
Right.

Matt Crumpton (53:52)
Rosselli is a shooter. Probably not. I was definitely not from the storm drain. Sorry, storm drain enthusiasts. But we were there when I was there in Dallas with Andrew Eiler and Mark Kudamczyk and Joe Borelli. We were really looking at that storm drain. And the reality is if you're down there, you're going to hit the car. Oh, sorry. That's funny. I got to have a, yeah, my kids busy board down here. All right.

Greg Randolph (54:07)
It's impossible from that angle.

Right. ⁓ Endure stuff. Nice.

Matt Crumpton (54:20)
So yeah, so that's, think that pretty much sums them up.

Greg Randolph (54:24)
Okay. Yeah, I my understanding was that Nicoletti was in the back with Harry Weatherford and Braden. that's I mean, because somebody had to fire the shot that hit that that hit the curb and then came up and hit James tag in the cheek, right?

Matt Crumpton (54:44)
Right. Was Nicoletti. What evidence is there for Nicoletti.

Greg Randolph (54:49)
I don't know. mean, you hear the crap from James Files and that guy's a fraud from what I understand. So, I mean, who knows?

Matt Crumpton (54:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So, yeah, it's, kind of hard to say. mean, for me, I'm just trying to figure out like, what can we establish? And then we'll jump into, ⁓ speculating once we're armed with all the things that we know. Cause just like you asked me about, you know, when, when did the Oswald operation start? When did he become the Patsy? And for me to

answer that question in an educated way, I'd have to know all the things that have been established. And I'm still speculating, but at least I'm at least as an educated guess.

Greg Randolph (55:37)
Gotcha, gotcha. So let me ask ⁓ you, and you probably saw this, part of this presentation at the JFK Lancer from Groden and Mark Gruber and Eric Humley about political assassination in cinema, which I thought was really interesting. So how close to the truth about JFK are movies like

executive action in JFK.

Matt Crumpton (56:06)
Executive action. I've actually watched it a long time ago, but I need to watch it again to to give a better, better take on that. mean, I know the movies like from the perspective of the conspirators, which is a different take as opposed to like JFK is from the perspective of Jim Garrison. ⁓ So, you know, did Oliver Stone get it right? Well, let me say this about Oliver Stone.

Greg Randolph (56:15)
Okay.

Matt Crumpton (56:33)
He's the one that led to the JFK Records Act. He's the one that brought all this stuff back to the forefront. Oliver Stone is an American hero. Some people don't like him for various reasons. Or people will say he's wrong and he's covering up for X, and Z. But I think he generally did good work. the challenge he has is he's got to figure out what's a reasonable

Greg Randolph (56:37)
Yes.

Matt Crumpton (57:02)
perspective, you know, a reasonable lens to tell a story in a three hour movie. And that's and I think for the purpose of like filmmaking, Jim Garrison is a great tool for that, because people are used to sort of like the hero prosecutor who's going to, you know, sort of fight crime. ⁓ So I understand. And once you make a decision to go through the Jim Garrison lens,

You got to cover what Jim Garrison covered. You know what saying? So for example, Oliver Stone doesn't talk about the Mafia's involvement at all. ⁓ Oliver Stone doesn't... What other thing? ⁓ Yeah, there are some little facts here and there that are... Could I go through and make critiques of the film? I'm sure there are some things that are a little off, but you know, it's also true. Some of the...

biggest experts in the case today still were consultants on JFK. mean, John Newman was a consultant on JFK. So was Robert Groton and a lot of other people. What's his name? ⁓ the guy from he's based in Dallas. Dr. Gary Shaw. Gary Shaw was a consultant, But yeah. So the answer is I think it's solid.

Greg Randolph (58:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (58:25)
Is it exactly it's not it's a movie and it's not tethered to it's not like everything has a citation, but I it did its purpose. And I'll also I'll also add that Nixon, Oliver Stone's Nixon is really just a sequel to JFK. It's all about JFK. So go watch Nixon, too. And then the other thing is he to address sort of my criticisms, which is it's not steeped in the factual record. He then came back and did a documentary with my co-author, James Duginio.

called JFK. ⁓ man, what's it called? It's got a few different names, different versions of it, different names. But anyway, JFK Revisited and that's a really solid documentary update as well. Oliver Stone's alright with me.

Greg Randolph (58:53)
Mm-hmm.

revisited.

I literally have that the JFK revisited is a must watch. If you're a student of this, it really is. But my question on executive action is they make mention of a company in London, but it was an actuarial study done on the JFK pool where the odds of

of 18 witnesses dying of any cause within just a few years of the assassination. Get this number is one in 100 trillion. One in 100 trillion. What do you, make of that?

Matt Crumpton (59:52)
Yeah. That's a coincidence, huh? I mean, no, mean, so the answer is if people who think Oswald did it alone would argue, well, you're lumping in people as dying after the case, you know, who had heart attacks and who car accidents and all these things. And now you're what you said addressed that because you said of any cause. But.

Greg Randolph (59:57)
Come watch this.

Sure.

Matt Crumpton (1:00:19)
What I would say to that is, look, and during the church committee, there's the famous picture of Senator Frank Church holding up the CIA's heart attack gun. ⁓ And the CIA had a gun that shot frozen darts of shellfish toxins that would kill people and make it look like it was a heart attack in their blood. so we had that.

⁓ So this is back to the thing about injecting cancer cells, maybe if it's scientifically possible even okay, but maybe we did

Greg Randolph (1:00:52)
It certainly wouldn't shock me.

Matt Crumpton (1:00:57)
Yeah, it wouldn't shock me. And it's not the type of thing that we would talk about. The things that have been demonstrated, many would argue, are just a limited hangout. So they're not kind of everything away. They're showing us a little bit of stuff and saying, here, focus on this. That's what a conspiracy theorist would say,

Greg Randolph (1:01:15)
That's right. That's right.

So have you done any, research on, E Howard hunt and his chain of command diagram? Have you, have you seen that before? So, so this, so his, his diagram has, it's got LBJ at the top, cord Meyer, David Atlee Phillips, David Morales, a French assassin and

Matt Crumpton (1:01:23)
Yeah? Sure. I have.

Greg Randolph (1:01:40)
I've also seen this with both with either Puerto Rican assassins or Cuban assassins. do we have any information? mean, given, there's some speculation on E. Howard Hunt and his sons and his confessions is there, is this anything at all to be concerned with?

Matt Crumpton (1:01:59)
Yeah.

Well, I'm going to cover E Howard Hunt in depth. I just was kind of looking at this again the other day. Yeah, think there's something that I think I'm on the fence like I always like to be, Greg. I think on one hand, we can't just believe everything E Howard Hunt is saying and go, ⁓ this is what. And the reason why I would say that is because he's

a lifelong CIA officer. You know, this is kind of who he is. So we have to entertain the possibility that what he's saying is either just disinformation or it is.

Greg Randolph (1:02:33)
Right? Right?

Matt Crumpton (1:02:45)
a limited hangout, meaning some of it's true and some of it's not true and some of the truth is not on there. But like, hey, man, where's Alan Dulles? You know, I don't remember is David Atlee Phillips on his or not. But but but anyway, Hunt, having said that, Hunt is a key player. And I believe Hunt was in Dallas. I mean, there's the famous

Liberty Lobby defamation trial where Hunt sued Victor Marchetti. ⁓

you know, and actually that's more interesting than it appears on the surface because Victor Marchetti's article said that that angled said that the CIA was going to frame Hunt as being in Dallas that day as a limited hangout. didn't say Hunt was in Dallas. It says the CIA is going to say that he was in Dallas and it turns out that turns out that the source for Marchetti sources traced back and it's Angleton.

So I sailed that to say, and also came out at trial, is where Marita Lorenz comes on, you know, is really big. She testifies under oath about, I believe, traveling with Sturgis and then they meet E. Howard Hunt there.

recollection. His wife died mysteriously in a plane with a bunch of money and this is I think after they were getting divorced. So E Howard Hunt, there's definitely something there and I look forward to digging into that more. But I would say don't believe everything blindly but also be open-minded enough to believe that some of it may be true.

Greg Randolph (1:04:19)
I think you're spot on on that. Let me just mention a couple things on LBJ here. my understanding is that LBJ, two months before the assassination, vanishes from Washington and retreats to his ranch in Austin, where he's allegedly visited by one Alan Dulles. I've heard that, but...

I don't know how possible that can actually be.

Matt Crumpton (1:04:52)
I have sad news about that, which is that it appears that that is not true. I don't because I was I was like, oh my gosh, we're done here, guys. Right. We did it with this pretty clear. You know, why is Dulles, meeting with LBJ at his ranch right before. so in zooming into that, your reference is not, from nowhere.

Greg Randolph (1:04:55)
Okay.

Okay.

Matt Crumpton (1:05:17)
It's from one of the best books on the JFK assassination, Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot. And this is really one of the only things that I found that Talbot got wrong. And got wrong. Matt Crumpton, who are you to say David Talbot got something wrong? Well,

I'm a guy who was taking what he said and running with it. And then people on the internet showed me some stuff. I was like, all right, OK. And so here's what it is. Talbot must have come across. There's an article in, it was syndicated throughout a bunch of different newspapers, in what you're talking about, in August of 1963. And the article is about how Lady Bird is this great homemaker. OK?

Greg Randolph (1:05:57)
game.

Matt Crumpton (1:05:58)
And

the photograph for the article is a picture of Lady Bird and Alan Dulles and Dulles's wife and LBJ. OK. And it's like it's from like August 16th, 1963. I think it was something like that. Well, it turns out Dulles visited another time to the LBJ ranch. So I think in like 1960 or 61. OK. And I went back and found the pictures.

Greg Randolph (1:06:07)
Okay.

Okay.

Matt Crumpton (1:06:27)
of when he visited at the ranch the first time. And it's the same pictures. So in other words, when Talbot was researching his book, came across

the article and he sees the photo and sees the date and sees Dulles in the photo and he goes, Alan Dulles is here on this date because it's not like it explained that the photo was from a different date. So I'm not faulting Talbot, but I think when you look at the pictures from the prior visit, it is the same visit. And so I think that one is probably not true.

Greg Randolph (1:07:00)
Interesting. Have you run across anything with LBJ's connection to Carlos Marcelo where maybe in late 1950s, or earlier, they come together and Marcelo is paying off LBJ

to kill the racketeering bills in committee before they hit the floor in Congress.

Matt Crumpton (1:07:31)
Yes.

So while LBJ was in the Senate throughout the 50s, I think it was for 10 years, $50,000 in 1950s money per year, know, so half a million dollars in 1950s money. And that was exactly what you laid out. And so a lot of these things are speculative. OK, to an extent. This one is now there's always the thing of like our witness is lying. OK, sure. But this one is from

Jack Halfen, who was testing the person that said this was testifying, I believe, to like a securities and exchange commission hearing growth. so that's kind of where that came from. And it's been supported in several other places as well. But yeah, Marcelo is definitely bribing LBJ, which makes sense because, you know, Texas is his territory and the.

the proofs in the pudding LBJ killed the racketeering acts. Now another fun fact LBJ's neighbor when he was vice president and not when he was vice president at the observatory but his neighbor before that in the house he actually lived in in DC was Irving Davidson who's a lawyer for Marcelo and trafficante. So

Greg Randolph (1:08:41)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Matt Crumpton (1:08:50)
I mean, these things, these people are all linked together. then, you know, yeah. So LBJ has got, he's got a ton of motive, you know, he's got all kinds of stuff going on. It's just the Mack Wallace fingerprint. The most recent expert analysis is that it doesn't match and it's using better technology. And will people want

Greg Randolph (1:09:00)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (1:09:14)
me to do is go, yeah, but that guy's obviously a fed, use the old worst technology that says that they do match. And it's like, how about we just get another one done? Like, you know, why don't we, people don't trust the current one. Let's get 50 more done. I don't care. Like, but to me it's enough. And I understand that, you know, my friend, Jeff Crudell, for example, and then another guy, Armstrong, he's a big, you

Greg Randolph (1:09:25)
Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (1:09:40)
LBJ is the main guy advocate. They're on another page of wanting more information. And I think more information is always good. So I'm not against that. just me looking at it. I don't it doesn't make sense. And also Billy Solestis, who's the one who's really pushing the Mack Wallace thing. He says Wallace is on the grassy knoll. What? I the fingerprints on the sixth floor. You know what I mean? So

Greg Randolph (1:10:00)
Right.

Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (1:10:02)
But

having said all that, LBJ, you got to leave him on the board. And the question for me is, did he have foreknowledge, which I kind of think probably. I think it's likely. And then the bigger question is, did he have any involvement? And I think he had too much stuff going on to try to quarterback it. I don't think it was through Mac Wallace and all that stuff, like I said. So for me, think LBJ is more of a probably foreknowledge and cover up guy, not a.

quarterback behind the plot guy. He's the guy waiting to take the wings whose policies that the plotters like, you know? So that's what he is. He's the new policies, really.

Greg Randolph (1:10:33)
Yeah.

I got you. My understanding on LBJ's involvement was that he was going down that week for these investigations and that RFK was feeding Time Life or Life Magazine or whoever it was, this information on him that he was going down for these things with Billy Solestis and the other one. And

He either got off the roller coaster right there and knocked Kennedy out or he was going down the next week and he was gonna be on the cover. But they had to go with the assassination obviously.

Matt Crumpton (1:11:17)
Yeah.

What you're saying is true about the story about Bobby Baker and specifically Don Reynolds is testifying against LBJ at the moment of the assassination. He's testifying against LBJ. What could be used criminally against him. RFK absolutely was coming after him. They weren't going to have him on the ticket in the next year, I believe is the most reasonable assessment.

Greg Randolph (1:11:26)
public. That's it.

That was right. Yes.

Matt Crumpton (1:11:49)
And what

Greg Randolph (1:11:49)
Yep.

Matt Crumpton (1:11:49)
you're saying is true. then the question becomes, well, hang on now. This guy has the most intense motive, LBJ. His whole life's going to come crumbling down. He's going to go to prison, very likely, if he doesn't take over. But that, to me, is sort of grease for the wheel of getting him to comply with the plotters and not get brave and become a patriot and be like, hey, now.

Even though I have my disagreements with them, we shouldn't kill him. Like you don't have to worry about LBJ. So to me, I put that motive towards that. Like LBJ is in. Don't worry. We got LBJ. He's trust us. He's not going to he's not going to say anything like so. But again, there's a lot there for LBJ. So like, for example, LBJ is getting briefs from Colonel Burris that Kennedy is not even getting.

Greg Randolph (1:12:31)
Right. Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Matt Crumpton (1:12:45)
So

like if LBJ is involved, it's probably through his back channel Burris, you know? But maybe not. Maybe Burris is wonderful. I'll know more when I cover the military.

Greg Randolph (1:12:58)
got you. I just got on recommendation from another researcher, the book by Philip Nelson, where he nails LBJ as the mastermind and lays out to the doorstep that, hey, how do you not, how do you ignore all of this, all this information? And I have yet to read it. I can't really speak to it too much.

Matt Crumpton (1:13:20)
It's really,

it's very well sourced and very well cited. And I relied on it significantly. just found other information that I thought contradicted the information in it for a couple of things here and there, but 98 % of what Philip Nelson said, I think makes a lot of sense. So.

Greg Randolph (1:13:40)
Mm-hmm.

Interesting, Matt, what do you make of the recent revelation that Bill Harvey of the CIA did in fact have a few aliases that he used for for covert travel via the FAA as William Walker and so on?

Matt Crumpton (1:14:02)
Yeah, and that he was using those aliases in 1963 is the other part of that. think Bill Harvey is in charge of Task Force W, which was the assassinations, and then ZR rifle, was... I don't know about Harvey in Northwoods. That could be. just don't... But yeah, so Bill Harvey...

Greg Randolph (1:14:06)
Yes.

Okay, but zero rifle for sure.

Matt Crumpton (1:14:26)
is a central character in the story. Johnny Rosselli is handler for period of time. then he tells Johnny Rosselli that he's done with him. then, know, Johnny Rosselli is still around hanging out with him after the fact. But what you said about, that that document coming out, that's the kind of document that would support what we already think. it's not definitive. It's not conclusive. But look, the guy that we think maybe

quarterbacking the operations or involved to an extent. Well, he's got a free pass to travel anywhere surreptitiously. And when you couple that with, I believe again, I haven't covered Harvey yet. So I'm getting ahead of myself, but believe there's a somebody who worked for Harvey who said that he had flown to Dallas that weekend. so pair. Yes, pair that I'm saying before the assassination. So pair that with he could fly anywhere freely.

Greg Randolph (1:15:09)
Right, to go down there and check out things.

Matt Crumpton (1:15:20)
that very well could have happened. Doesn't mean it did, but you know, if Oswald didn't kill this guy, somebody had to have killed him and it had to be done through, you know, some sort of methodology. And there's only so many players on the board that could have done it. So we're getting to it. And Bill Harvey's a suspect leaving the board. Absolutely.

Greg Randolph (1:15:35)
Sure.

To jump back to what you're saying, like somebody had to kill Kennedy, I think if we just take a basic quick look at the forensics of the assassination, autopsy, he can't, like the one that hits Kennedy in the back is from a flat trajectory from County Records or Daltex building.

you've got one from the front that hits him in the throat, which is what the doctors at Parkland saw. And then you have the headshots coming from the grassy knoll or the other end of the triple underpass. So I...

Matt Crumpton (1:16:25)
The... Yeah, I would just add that sort of the...

Accepted understanding, I would say at this point amongst the medical experts on this thing, the David Mantix and Doug Horne's of the world would be that there was a headshot from the rear in addition to a headshot from the front, in addition to the throat shot. So you're talking about

back shot, a

head shot from the front, a throat shot. And then Connelly's got to have all his wounds somehow. So is there another shot that was just Connelly? Because the challenge is if that throat shot is really an entrance wound, well, then how does the bullet go through Kennedy to get to Connelly? Now, the back wound is lower than the throat wound.

Greg Randolph (1:17:00)
Mm-hmm.

Go please, I'm almost done.

Matt Crumpton (1:17:24)
Yeah.

Greg Randolph (1:17:26)
interesting we talked about jim braden bill harvey

Matt, this has been an amazing conversation. Let me ask you just a couple more things and we'll land the plane here, so to speak. Let me reference another rather interesting character in this movie, and that is JFK's cigar-smoking Air Force Chief of Staff, Curtis LeMay. Where was LeMay on the day of the assassination?

Matt Crumpton (1:17:48)
Yeah.

I believe there's a, I remember looking at this at some point. I'll come back to it when I get to the generals, but there's a document that says LeMais and ⁓

Canada I think or this there's a document that says that he's supposed to be somewhere else But then there's someone else who says no, no, no, I was with him at this other place, which was like closer to to Washington and I Think there's one of the orderlies at Bethesda is the one who said that they saw a lame in the ⁓ in the autopsy room smoking a cigar So I think that's the thing that's not

Greg Randolph (1:18:15)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (1:18:33)
It's disputed for sure. It's not established. But what is established is that he appears to have lied about his whereabouts. And there's one person who was there who says Curtis LeMay was smoking a cigar in the autopsy room. So that's what we know.

Greg Randolph (1:18:35)
Mm-hmm.

I gotcha. why do you think he was at the autopsy?

Matt Crumpton (1:18:54)
Well, the first question is, he? And that's why. Yeah. Well, that's why it's so disputed to answer your question, because if he was there, then it's it almost looks like he's there to to a oversee it to make sure that they they, you know, don't explore certain avenues and.

Greg Randolph (1:18:57)
if he was, why was he? ⁓

Right.

Matt Crumpton (1:19:19)
It also kind of, know, with the cigar, it's kind of like the exclamation point of like, I did it. I'm the man. He's just kind of there to gloat. He's just kind of there to hang on the room. It's kind of what it feels like. But like I said, you got to have if Oswald didn't do it alone, a prerequisite for that. Sorry. If Oswald didn't do it alone, a prerequisite for there to be a conspiracy is that the autopsy is.

Greg Randolph (1:19:28)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Crumpton (1:19:45)
fake and forged and controlled. Not fake like it didn't happen, but like it's forged. It's not authentic. And there's lot of evidence of different, there's evidence of two autopsies and two procedures. The first procedure being where they altered the body and the second procedure being the one that was in front of everybody. And that's a topic I want to come back to, but there seems to be good evidence on that now. I look forward to, after I get through season three, which will probably be

this take me this full year to do it. I'm gonna come back and really hash out a season of debates with people that disagree, some intramural internally that are on the conspiracy side. But a lot of people who say Oswald did it alone. My goal is to get two experts on the other side and then let me play and then I'll pick one person to be on my team for each topic and then we'll set it up and see how it goes.

Greg Randolph (1:20:25)
Mm-hmm.

Have you covered the whole scene at Parkland? Have you covered that one yet? Like between the limo getting there and then that's taken away and cleaned and then the doctors being threatened and told what to do, Earl Rose is pushed out of the way for the autopsy, all that. And then Elvin Jay calls to it apparently. Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (1:21:05)
Yeah, I-

I

covered that in the medical records. ⁓ The LBJ call you're referencing, think that's with regards to Lee Harvey Oswald to try to get a confession from him. That's what LBJ called the emergency room and that's according to Charles Crenshaw. But yeah.

Greg Randolph (1:21:28)
I

there was an operator that came forward not terribly long ago, but she said that she took that call. And maybe I'm conflating the two, but that's what I thought I understood.

Matt Crumpton (1:21:46)
she took the call when LBJ called to talk to.

Greg Randolph (1:21:51)
yeah she she took LBJ's call.

Matt Crumpton (1:21:52)
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So that's probably

true. Right. So they called and talks to the operator and the operator gets the doctor. Right. When the doctor's on the phone. that makes sense. ⁓ But I mean, I don't know if that's people think Crenshaw is not credible. They would say that. But look, Crenshaw got the Journal of American Medical Association to retract their statements and when the rubber hit the road. So

Greg Randolph (1:22:03)
Okay.

Matt Crumpton (1:22:22)
He seems pretty credible to me. But anyway, yeah, I did cover the timeline of arriving at Parkland and all that kind of stuff. And I believe that's in the first couple episodes of the Medical Evidence series in season one.

Greg Randolph (1:22:37)
Gotcha. good stuff. I'll have to go all the way back and check that out. you were able to attend the congressional hearings or at least one of the sessions, what would the vibes like? And what I mean by that is what was your sense of how is in spite of the political gamesmanship on both sides, way over the top for my liking, but what was your sense about how things were being handled as far as that goes?

Matt Crumpton (1:23:04)
well, the vibe, to be honest with you, you know, the situation is you've got the members, they call them the congressman and congresswoman who are

up in front of you on like tears like there's some here there's some here there's some there it's like a reverse auditorium like we're like the person speaking and the audience is on the stage and then but but you're talking up to the members right and a lot of it was empty so it was attended fairly well with the one i was at now part of that's because

Oliver Stone's a famous director and people wanted to get the novelty of Oliver Stone. You know what mean? but the vibe was, I think, like excitement. Like we were hoping it was going to be like a part of history. And you know, Jefferson Morley put some good stuff out there. My friend, Diogenio, put some good stuff out there. Oliver as well. I it was a good hearing. Now, the the second hearing, I thought was

was really good substantively to Doug Horn, who's become a friend. And I just think he's the man. So I'm pretty pro Doug Horn. And he did a great job. Hardaway, one of the investigators on the HSCA who looked at Oswald in Mexican City, did a really nice job. So yeah.

Greg Randolph (1:24:25)
Sure. Yeah.

Matt Crumpton (1:24:30)
I was hopeful that the story would be, hey, there's real questions in the JFK assassination. But the story was really more of like, you know, look at Oliver Stone's cool red glasses. It's just, I was disappointed at the lack of depth of the coverage. And then there was no coverage at all for the second one. It was just nothing. was like nothing happened. But, you know, I think

Congresswoman Luna is trying to do the best she can with.

within reasonable constraints, within unreasonable constraints, because it's covering so much or so little time. And the thing I keep saying is we just need to process to make sure that we get out of this thing with getting the documents released that everybody thinks are already released. There's still more than a thousand documents that have not been released. they're not talking pages. We're talking documents. Each document could have hundreds of pages. So we got to get at a minimum from the congressional committee.

some action to move forward the enforcement of the existing law on the books, the JFK Records Act, or create an ARRB 2.0, whatever. But we got it. would rather see action on getting the records declassified than trying to put together a report that's like Lucy and Sartee did it.

To have a report about who did it, you would have to have a process that was very robust and you'd have to cover a lot of facts and have a lot of information put on the record. And that's not been approached here. And I don't think this is currently the forum for that. So, yeah.

Greg Randolph (1:26:12)
interesting. How challenging is it present day in 2026 where this happened, you going on 63 years ago where, there are very, very few people who were there that day who were still alive that you can talk to and access. How challenging has that part of your research been?

Matt Crumpton (1:26:41)
Well, I think it would be really challenging if I was trying to do primary research myself. But really what I'm doing is kind of picking up the pieces from the first and second generation researchers and going, look, they said this, they said this, and here's this evidence, and they talked to this witness. So the witnesses have all been talked to for the most part. You're right, we're not getting new information. mean, it'd be great if Marina Oswald would give some sort of nursing home.

confession at the last second and tell us whether or not she really took the backyard photos or what but you know in a few things here and there where either Oswald did it or Marina's definitely lying and it'd be nice if she would just clarify some of those things while she's still alive but aside from her I mean Ruth Payne's gone

You know, we just lost, of course, RIP Rob Reiner. He wasn't a witness, but he was involved from the standpoint of being involved in the research for a long time. And we just lost Robert Tannenbaum, too, who was the deputy counsel of the HSCA. He passed away last week. So yeah, people are getting older. But there's enough of a record there that we can sketch together.

something and so I'm trying to figure out what that is and a lot of people have already done this. The only thing that's unique about what I'm doing is I'm covering it as comprehensively as possible so that when it's all done I can say that I touched on everything. Not that I everything right but that I at least covered the topic. I may have to go back and add some stuff but that's kind what I'm trying to do. And Jeff Crudel is doing the same thing and the lone gunman

Greg Randolph (1:28:01)
Sure.

Matt Crumpton (1:28:24)
I've also covered a zillion topics just in a nonlinear way, but it's another podcast. Shout out to Rob Clark and Joe Borelli. Those guys are, they're all friends. It's a good research community and ⁓ we could definitely have crappier people, that's for sure. So I like all the people I've met for the most part and yeah, it's been a good experience.

Greg Randolph (1:28:44)
You guys do a, you do a great job. mean, all of you really, but it's a great collection of a lot of great minds that are melding and meeting together and coming together on a lot of stuff. So that's really cool to see. let me ask you this, and I'm not defending Oswald for being, Russian this or communist that and Marxist this thing and.

CIA, FBI, whatever he might have been, do you possibly foresee a day in our lifetime where Oswald is exonerated or pardoned, any type of clemency, anything along those lines? Is that even remotely possible?

Matt Crumpton (1:29:26)
Well, I think for that to happen, you would have to have a substantive inquiry, like a substantive governmental inquiry where they like an HSC a 2.0 where they really spent some time and money on it. And I just don't know if. See, problem, see, the thing is, like, let's say for a moment, let's say Oswald did do it alone. I don't think that. OK, but.

Even if that's true, the powers that be don't want all the periphery peripheral investigations because they're investigating things like, it's going to get into stuff that just makes the government look horrible. You know, even even if Oswald did kill Kennedy alone. so which he didn't, to be clear. But but I don't even think he fired a shot. but anyway, yeah, that's the.

Greg Randolph (1:30:15)
⁓

Matt Crumpton (1:30:20)
you know, will it happen? It just depends on step one. Are we going to get the rest of these documents? And then are they going to is politics going to progress such that there's a governmental body? And then is there going to be a politician that comes to power that that would either think that's the right thing to do or that would think they could get some sort of clout from it? So that's what would have to be true. I would I'm going I'm going to go and say I'll say 20 percent chance. How about that?

Greg Randolph (1:30:46)
Fair

enough. I did want to point out that in the book, if you look very closely, you can see where the word are is just very slightly underlined. Like, yes, these are true about Oswald. I thought that was a nice touch.

Matt Crumpton (1:31:10)
Good, good, Well, good man. I appreciate you having me on. Thank you, Greg.

Greg Randolph (1:31:14)
No, no, you're welcome. And is there a way where listeners could contact you? What's the best way for someone to contact you if they happen to have a question?

Matt Crumpton (1:31:26)
Solving JFK podcast dot com. You can email solving JFK podcast at Gmail dot com. Although that inbox is a little flooded at the moment. honestly the best way to reach me is on Twitter at the moment. If you tweet at me I'll usually respond. I don't do this the only social media that I actually engage with.

They're the ones I just do what they call drive-bys on. I'll just post and be like, have fun everybody. I'm leaving. I'm not really here. But on Twitter, I'm actually, I use that social media. that's where I am. Email, some of the JFKs too, there's too many and I'm trying to go back and be better about it. I do look at them for recap and rebuttals, but the problem with the emails is it's like, I was really good at responding at first.

But these emails are like seven part emails and everybody's got like a 50 page document they want me to read to answer their seven page question. And I'm just like, I got to practice law. I to run a campground. You know, I'm trying to doing some things here. I got to write the next episode. Like I can't. So but you know, I'm trying.

Greg Randolph (1:32:35)
I gotcha. I gotcha. You're doing a great job. I appreciate you very much and I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you, Matt, very much for speaking with me. I am really grateful to you personally for your research in compiling these incredible stories. This was just really an absolute blast. Pleasure was all mine. I cannot thank you enough for being my guest today.

Matt Crumpton (1:32:58)
Thanks, Greg. I appreciate it, Thanks again.

Greg Randolph (1:33:00)
You got it. All right, everyone. Well, thank you again for listening to the Heroes and Icons podcast with your host Greg Randolph. Once more, thank you very much to our guest, Matt Crumpton. And again, his show is Solving JFK, the highly regarded podcast, which you can find wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to purchase the critically acclaimed book, The Chokeholds of the JFK Assassination. And you can also find the link to Matt's phenomenal podcast work in the show notes for this podcast.

Thank you again everyone for listening. Have a great night. God bless.